08-14-2020, 10:03 PM | #41 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
Quote:
This gave just 1.4n inches for the 'unarmoured' ends and the bottom, about 4.7 inches for the deck, and a little over 11 inches for the sides and fore and aft bulkheads. This was without counting the x1.4 multiplier Pyramid 3/24 would give. For a 30,000 tons full load battleship (which means a WWII superdreadnought) this is very roughly right but including the x1.4 multiplier, which it should get (cruisers of the period of under half the displacement were often almost as big as battleships, simply because they carrier so much less armour), this becomes far too much.
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08-14-2020, 11:00 PM | #42 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
Quote:
You get 150 DR (human scale) armor over a third of the ship per system. You took three systems and spread out that armor evenly, which comes out to an even 150 DR over the whole ship. So far so good. Then you take 5 Systems, each giving 300 DR on one facing. we divide this between 9 two-thirds facings, one of which is the deck, and four on each side. That gives us an additional 250 DR for each of the 9 sections, so a 400DR deck, and a 1150 DR sides. What size of shell should this armor resist?
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08-14-2020, 11:31 PM | #43 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
Quote:
Also, I assumed a deck four times the area of a side. Counting the ends (1/4 the area of a side), and smearing the armour all over, it came to DR785 for the sides and end bulkheads, DR328 for the armoured deck, and DR100 everywhere else. Using Pyramid 3/34's rules for 'Armor and Volume', this should be multiplied by x1.4. This is a little thinner than the thickest parts of a Queen Elizabeth-class battleship's belt (but the belt would be much deeper than the Queen Elizabeth's was), with deck armour a bit thicker and more uniform. As it was a slight upgrade from an Iron Duke's it was intended to protect against the expected performance of the 13.5" APC shells of the time (and the higher velocity but smaller 12" shells of the latest German battleships).
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08-16-2020, 06:17 AM | #44 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
Quote:
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08-16-2020, 09:35 AM | #45 |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
<shrug> DR 785 is 11 inches and change of RHA. That is a reasonable armor belt for a heavy combatant is not the biggest of the war.
Such ships in WW1 and II do not actually have a great record of bouncing heavy shellfire. Engagements tended to be either long exchanges where no one could hit anyone else or bloody shambles.
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Fred Brackin |
08-16-2020, 09:36 AM | #46 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
Quote:
DR785 will protect against 112d(2), which is a SS 30cm shell at 1/2 mps muzzle velocity at 1/2D range. It's in the right ballpark.
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08-16-2020, 10:30 AM | #47 |
Join Date: Feb 2016
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
In addition, any military spacecraft should be using Hardened Armor. One reason why shells and missiles are so effective is that they can suffer point defense. When we are talking about attacks with missiles, each turn could involve the attacker wasting millions of dollars of missiles against the defender every turn.
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08-22-2020, 08:38 PM | #48 | ||
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
I'm sorry for taking so long to reply to this, a lot has come up. But I do think the conversation is worth continuing.
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I believe battleships do have a fair record of bouncing hits from inferior foes, including the last generation of battleships and the main belts a good record of bouncing hits from other battleships. . Jutland had 25 ships go down, including 4 battlecruisers and 4 other large ships, but not a single battleship went down on either side. The Battle of Denmark strait had a not dissimilar result, with the battlecruiser getting sunk, but neither battleship actually getting through the armor belts: hits were to other areas. Quote:
That's applying 1/2d range to some very large guns, and I made my case for the main belt being able to take those hits above. I'm also a bit worried about the armor being able to take the explosive force of a shell. 785 DR can resist about 225d of damage, that's around 220 lbs of RDX via the numbers in high-tech -- a quarter of the historical weight of a 12-inch shell.
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08-22-2020, 09:04 PM | #49 | |
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
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Perhaps you were trying to say that battleships (and quite possibly all battleships everywhere) were armored in a better grade of steel thna RHA. If so I believe the burden of proof is upon you. Specifically I believe you will need to document al of the thickness of the armor belt, the material of that belt and the degreee to which it was superior to RHA. Ah sorry, I didn't catch you're final sentence about explosives until after I posted this the first time. Total weight of shells certainly exceded 220 lbs but there's a very large difference between total weight and weight of filler. The rule of thumb i know for artilery shells is that weight of filler for regular HE will be only approx. 10% of the total weight. Only 5% for APEX. So your 880 lbs 12 inch shell has only 88 lbs of filler if it's HE and less than that if it's APEX. You'd have to up to a 16 incher such as used by the Iowa-Class to get a little over an effective 220 lbs of filler in HE.
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Fred Brackin Last edited by Fred Brackin; 08-22-2020 at 09:14 PM. |
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08-22-2020, 09:44 PM | #50 | ||
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Join Date: Mar 2012
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Re: using spaceships for battletech-style tactical mecha combat
Quote:
However, searching does seem to indicate that battleship armor was superior to RHA. Quote:
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