Lifebane - Seeking fractional damage houserule?

[JCurwen3]

Lifebane kills small creatures. So then it occurs to me that this could be an issue for quantifying the effects when it comes to sapient characters playing tiny creatures with deci-scale HP.

It states that:

Originally Posted by B142

Your aura has no effect on animals that weigh more than a few ounces

There's no exact definition for "a few", but the largest insect is the goliath beetle, at 4.1 oz in its larval stage. If we use the common calculation to get HP (2*sqrt(mass in pounds)), then our large insect has 1.27 HP. The vast majority of insects are of course much lighter than that, but 4.1 seems well in the neighbourhood of "a few" ounces.

Then I calculated average human regen - it's 1/86400 HP per second (a.k.a. 1 HP per day!). Not sure if I can use that, but if it will never noticeably be able to harm a human then Lifebane's damage aura must do significantly less than 1 HP of injury to a human that remains within one yard of the Lifebane for the entire day. I guess.

I know this isn't clearly defined, so I'm really looking for a decent houserule to cover this. If there's a "hidden" Innate Attack with appropriate modifiers (Aura, Always On, etc) built into it, what would the rate of damage be per second? 0.1 HP? More? Less?

[Aneirin]

Fractional damage is much more trouble than it is worth, as if life bane is the only thing to do fractional damage, it wont matter unless it take someone over 1 hp (as 3.7 is still over 3)

If you are dead set on life bane hurting someone you could do 1HP of damage if spending 12 hours within its radius.

I wouldn't base the damage off the largest insects goliath beetles...I would jsut have goliath beetles die slower than smaller beetles.

Just consider everything that isn't an insect having DR1, limited only to lifebane, a 0 point feature (unless you want life bane to hurt people, but in this case you are best of not using life bane but an innate attack with aura and always on that does 1 hp of damage every day to someone within the aura with a nuisance effect, kills insects instantly)

As its a disadvantage..I don't know, invert the points cost? (i.e., if it is +20 it becomes -20)

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Aneirin

Fractional damage is much more trouble than it is worth, as if life bane is the only thing to do fractional damage, it wont matter unless it take someone over 1 hp (as 3.7 is still over 3)

The OP specifically mentions a deciscale campaign with PCs with fractional HPs, so I sure hope Lifebane won't be the only thing doing fractional damage... or those PCs are toast :)

Originally Posted by Aneirin

I wouldn't base the damage off the largest insects goliath beetles...I would jsut have goliath beetles die slower than smaller beetles.

This I definitely agree with. They don't have to drop dead immediately - starting to take "significant" damage will send most things straight out of the aura, and smaller vermin (fleas, ticks, flies, mosquitos) can still be bug-zappered.

The larger/tougher plants are obviously not killed instantly, so larger/tougher small vermin being sickened ("wilting") seems a reasonable parallel.

Originally Posted by Aneirin

Just consider everything that isn't an insect having DR1, limited only to lifebane, a 0 point feature

1) It affects more than just insects, it affects animals and plants. It affects everything that's generally affected by tox damage, it's just a trivial amount of tox damage.

2) That makes my game design hurt. I'd rather put an armor multiplier on the attack, or an accessibility limitation on the attack,

Originally Posted by Aneirin

(unless you want life bane to hurt people, but in this case you are best of not using life bane but an innate attack with aura and always on that does 1 hp of damage every day to someone within the aura with a nuisance effect, kills insects instantly)

I would say more that large animals (like people) that really DO spend their entire day in intimate personal contact with the Lifebane get sick (ie take 1 or 2 tox damage a day) and the person taking that significant amount of damage associates it with the bane (effectively adding additional Supernatural Features into the disadvantage, tipping off the victim as to the Lifebane character's exotic nature and causing more reaction penalties from them).

Originally Posted by Aneirin

As its a disadvantage..I don't know, invert the points cost? (i.e., if it is +20 it becomes -20)

Eearrg. Almost never works. Especially with an innate attack.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Bruno

The OP specifically mentions a deciscale campaign with PCs with fractional HPs, so I sure hope Lifebane won't be the only thing doing fractional damage... or those PCs are toast :)

Exactly. And the campaign is a mixed scale one, so I definitely need to keep track of fractional HP.

Originally Posted by Bruno

This I definitely agree with. They don't have to drop dead immediately - starting to take "significant" damage will send most things straight out of the aura, and smaller vermin (fleas, ticks, flies, mosquitos) can still be bug-zappered.

This is true. Even the larger insects might simply be repelled rather than up and die, because they'd feel the wasting pain and stay away. And a mosquito, weighing in at a "hefty" 2 mg at max will by the standard HP equation have about 0.0328 HP, and should surely die within a second's exposure.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I would say more that large animals (like people) that really DO spend their entire day in intimate personal contact with the Lifebane get sick (ie take 1 or 2 tox damage a day) and the person taking that significant amount of damage associates it with the bane (effectively adding additional Supernatural Features into the disadvantage, tipping off the victim as to the Lifebane character's exotic nature and causing more reaction penalties from them).

2 tox damage per day would mean ~2.315e-5 damage per second. Still might be a bit on the low side, but then again, I'd need to factor in the fractional DR of human skin, as well as the average 1.1574e-5 per second (1 per day) regen of a human.

Possibly even if it did 1 damage per hour, that'd be 1/60 (~0.0167) damage per second, and it'd have zero combat effectiveness vs large creatures. Still wouldn't be enough to kill a mosquito in any less than 2 seconds. If it did 2 damage per hour, it would take out virtually all small insects and be pretty harsh on the larger ones (like the goliath beetle, or the mighty American cockroach) while still being useless against anything with HP above 1 in combat.

If I went with a preferred alternate rule option (from Pyramid #3/34: Alternate GURPS, p. 25) and used 0.85*sqrt(mass) for HP rather than 2*cuberoot(mass), then that could kill smaller creatures even more easily. I know the opinion that it makes smaller animals like house cats too weak and larger animals like elephants much stronger, but I've never been clear if the values it produces are unrealistic or just bad for gaming though.

[patchwork]

As it's a disadvantage, the angle you should be looking at it from (in my opinion) is "what's the maximum inconvenience this can cause the person who has Lifebane?" if these tiny sapients are enemies, then they take no damage period. If they're allies or accepted members of society, I'd look at other 10-point disadvantages (like maybe Dread?) to see what sort of penalties it would impose. I'd honestly look for a penalty such as Low Pain Threshold or Susceptibility to Disease or something and say that suffer from it when they stand too close to the Lifebaned.

As lifebane is a mystical disadvantage, I presume there's some mysticism in your campaign, so I'd probably invoke something like "lifebane cannot affect anything that could even remotely be considered to have a soul" or some such.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by patchwork

As it's a disadvantage, the angle you should be looking at it from (in my opinion) is "what's the maximum inconvenience this can cause the person who has Lifebane?" if these tiny sapients are enemies, then they take no damage period. If they're allies or accepted members of society, I'd look at other 10-point disadvantages (like maybe Dread?) to see what sort of penalties it would impose. I'd honestly look for a penalty such as Low Pain Threshold or Susceptibility to Disease or something and say that suffer from it when they stand too close to the Lifebaned.

Other disadvantages have some benefit attached, such as Callous or Berserk. Lifebane specifically states: "It has its side benefits, however. For instance, you need never buy insect repellent!". And it does say that tiny creatures die. I think it makes sense to apply this to sapient enemies and allies, if they have low enough (fractional) HP.

Originally Posted by patchwork

As lifebane is a mystical disadvantage, I presume there's some mysticism in your campaign, so I'd probably invoke something like "lifebane cannot affect anything that could even remotely be considered to have a soul" or some such.

Lifebane needn't necessarily represent something mystical, it could just represent a mildly toxic aura. The fluff text says "supernatural" (and it does have the type), but really it's mechanically mostly about the -2 to reaction rolls to those who notice, +2 on rolls to locate you in most outdoor environments, and the +2 to "deduce your secret" if the Lifebane comes from a nature that is vampiric, demonic, etc. You could just as easily be an alien that exudes a toxic aura or energy field that has no noticeable effects aside from wasting the tinier life forms around you. Plus you get an effective perk, Accessory: Insect repellent.

That's not the case in my game; it is mystical. but I'd rather not invoke the "soul" thing, because I think it seems a bit arbitrary and I'm also not sure I want to establish that most insects and plants don't have souls.

If you think about it, even if it did as much as 0.1 tox damage per turn, well, that would still be below GURPS's normal resolution, being worth only 0.1 character point (calculated as a tenth of the cost of a 1 point of damage toxic attack). And I'd estimate the correct amount of tox damage being less than 0.1, in the centi-scale. Easy for such a minor thing to get lost in the general disadvantageousness that is Lifebane.

[Bruno]

When it ever comes up, I tend to consider SM 0 DR 0 humanoids as having DR 0.5 (round down) - mostly when dealing with weapons with an armor multiplier since I don't have deciscale stuff floating around.

If you go by that "rule" and scale with linear size, that would be enough right there to make humans immune.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Bruno

When it ever comes up, I tend to consider SM 0 DR 0 humanoids as having DR 0.5 (round down) - mostly when dealing with weapons with an armor multiplier since I don't have deciscale stuff floating around.

If you go by that "rule" and scale with linear size, that would be enough right there to make humans immune.

Very good point! And a good rule... of course human skin has some DR, and 0.5 sounds about right; it's just normally below GURPS's integer resolution.

[kirbwarrior]

If it matters, the way I have played Lifebane was that it only kills things that would die from 1 damage attacks i.e. 1/6 hp or lower. That may be a little strong in your campaign though.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

If it matters, the way I have played Lifebane was that it only kills things that would die from 1 damage attacks i.e. 1/6 hp or lower. That may be a little strong in your campaign though.

Thanks. Having it be a 1 damage attack would be a bit strong for my campaign, yeah.

That said, you've reminded me that anything that dies instantly from exposure has to be reduced to -5xHP, meaning take 6xHP damage. And that helps me figure out what level of fractional damage it should do in order to instantly kill the things (like gnats, mosquitos, and virtually all flies) that I feel it must be able to kill in a second. So again, this was a helpful bit of advice. :-)