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Old 07-22-2008, 01:10 PM   #31
safisher
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
On one hand, prime stud stallions should go for incredible amounts. On the other, there is at least some correlation between the factors that influence a horse's price to an adveturer (speed, endurance, strength and intelligence) and those that breeders and collectors see as desirable and stylish. Of course, gait, looks and proven lineage might exist independently of such statistics . . .
IME, gait, looks, speed, endurance, strength, etc. are determined to a large extent by lineage. That's why stud fees are so high -- you are paying for a very sure thing. A stud can cover dozens of mares per year and within a very short time (six years, say), you've "bred up" a generation of better horses. Within ten to twenty years you've got an old foundation of superior horses, assuming you keep bringing in new superior bloodlines for sire and dame. This is VERY common on horse ranches, who mainly do this to increase their income, through stud fees!

As to price, I think the good and fine quality for equipment is probably a good model. 5x would be a horse with above average stats and training (this need not conflict too much with Basic Set says) and 20x for a clearly superior horse with excellent desired features. I'd say x2 for +1 styling only -- the rest is simply a blur between a fine horse and fad, though no one with a brain will pay for a nice looking working horse that is in poor health, flighty, untrainable, etc.
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Old 07-22-2008, 08:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by safisher
As to price, I think the good and fine quality for equipment is probably a good model. 5x would be a horse with above average stats and training (this need not conflict too much with Basic Set says) and 20x for a clearly superior horse with excellent desired features. I'd say x2 for +1 styling only -- the rest is simply a blur between a fine horse and fad, though no one with a brain will pay for a nice looking working horse that is in poor health, flighty, untrainable, etc.
Eyeballed like that, it seems to argue for the same method used for Fine and Very Fine weapons, with multipliers of the base price accumulating rather than growing exponentially.

A clearly superior horse, by that mechanism, would end up in the 80k-100k ballpark of the x20 modifier instead of the 1+ M ballpark. Better all around, I think, even if some extreme stud fees might be higher.
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Old 07-23-2008, 12:09 AM   #33
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Hope info here gets into GURPS Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:02 AM   #34
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Hope info here gets into GURPS Cabaret Chicks on Ice!
I hope safisher will find the time to write GURPS Bestiary: Horses and Equines. An e23 book on the subject might not be too much to hope for within a few months, but CCoI and the Second Coming appear to be about as distant at this juncture.

And I hope that someone has an idea of how much having Fit and Very Fit should modify the value of a horse. And whether those are Advantages that only specific breeds with good lineages can take or whether any horse can be trained to that level of fitness.
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Old 07-23-2008, 08:56 AM   #35
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

About Knights on a Budget. ST25 war trained saddle horse is at $2880. Well, I've only read this on wikipedia, so take it with a dash of salt, that rounceys were very common and many man-at-arms (status 1) used them as warhorses.

If you have Fief, it basically makes sense of the wide range of warhorse costs .

On the other hand, at wealthy and comfortable one would find it strange that one's assets is worth less than a years disposable income.

In perspective a status 1 or status 2 person who only pays for their CoL can save money greater than their assets/properties that allowed them to earn that income in the first place?

If assets were based on Income, you can probably tailor a more accurate or workable budget for wealthy knights and comfortable man-at-arms.


Back to the horses discussion


Also, I've been noticing the pricing in the basic set for horses tend to break down. I was drawing up the stats for horse options for my games when i noticed that the price of a Jennet (according to Horse Sense, a pony) war trained and strong (ST 21) would cost $3,600 just $400 difference from a Cavalry Horse with better strength (ST22) and an 8 move.

On the topic of price problems, a large mule as compared to the price of a small mule with 20% strength and 1 point of better move (w/c isnt much cause they ground move is x1.5 instead of x2) makes the comparison of 1.2k vs 2k very imbalanced.... not to mention the cost of a strong small mule being the same cost of a saddle horse with Way better Strength and better move.

I've read up on mules and certain advantages in temperament and handling should be around to justify the overpricing if its going to be left as is.

I think scaling the prices, to fit the Game Medium would be a priority when people would go back to fixing stuff about horses.

Oh yeah and a clearer definition in what goes into a war trained horse and how certain skills (hiking or running) affect the value of a horse as well as training a horse for those skills.
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:29 AM   #36
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by nik1979
Also, I've been noticing the pricing in the basic set for horses tend to break down. I was drawing up the stats for horse options for my games when i noticed that the price of a Jennet (according to Horse Sense, a pony) war trained and strong (ST 21) would cost $3,600 just $400 difference from a Cavalry Horse with better strength (ST22) and an 8 move.
The jennet based on Pony statistics will have DX 10 instead of DX 9, thus leading to better skill scores with less training. That's got to be worth something. And something not noted in the text, but true nonetheless, a small horse is stronger for his size and generally eats less than a bigger one. You might save on feeding with the jennet.

Also, you probably shouldn't be applying full war training cost to just teaching the horse to transport people around a battlefield, as opposed to learning that and fighting on their own. +50% for the former sounds fair, if the latter is +100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik1979
On the topic of price problems, a large mule as compared to the price of a small mule with 20% strength and 1 point of better move (w/c isnt much cause they ground move is x1.5 instead of x2) makes the comparison of 1.2k vs 2k very imbalanced.... not to mention the cost of a strong small mule being the same cost of a saddle horse with Way better Strength and better move.
A stronger small mule should be treated as a large mule, IMO. And, as you say, mules can do things horses can't, which is why they cost equivalent amounts despite being slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nik1979
I think scaling the prices, to fit the Game Medium would be a priority when people would go back to fixing stuff about horses.

Oh yeah and a clearer definition in what goes into a war trained horse and how certain skills (hiking or running) affect the value of a horse as well as training a horse for those skills.
Agreed.
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Old 07-23-2008, 04:30 PM   #37
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by Icelander
And I hope that someone has an idea of how much having Fit and Very Fit should modify the value of a horse. And whether those are Advantages that only specific breeds with good lineages can take or whether any horse can be trained to that level of fitness.
Hmm, I would say any horse could be Fit, if it were trained to that level. Note that big heavy horses have leg problems if they act even the slightest bit athletic, so lighter horses (@1,000 lbs. or less) have better bone structure comparatively and thus could get Very Fit.

As for pricing, assume you simplify things and bump the price for attributes and advantages across the board. Might work at perhaps 1-5% per character point beyond the template. That's probably to gamish, but it would be easier to use that then price every single exception . . .
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Old 07-23-2008, 06:28 PM   #38
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

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Originally Posted by safisher
Hmm, I would say any horse could be Fit, if it were trained to that level. Note that big heavy horses have leg problems if they act even the slightest bit athletic, so lighter horses (@1,000 lbs. or less) have better bone structure comparatively and thus could get Very Fit.
Thanks, great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher
As for pricing, assume you simplify things and bump the price for attributes and advantages across the board. Might work at perhaps 1-5% per character point beyond the template. That's probably to gamish, but it would be easier to use that then price every single exception . . .
I'm fine with pricing every attribute. I'm detail oriented and so's my group (we just finished reviewing the ledgers of the first six months of their trading company in our fantasy game).

If the x20 is a workable upper limit, I'll just treat Fit as +1 MV for the purposes of cost and Very Fit as +2 MV. Then I'll use the added percentages of base price as a method instead of the multiplicitive modifiers that would yield costs in millions.
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:30 PM   #39
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

This is a a little bearing on the non-wealthy knight debate. If you would like to outfit yourself with full knightly regalia in a TL8 level society, it is still going to cost you a pretty penny. You get $20,000 in starting money, of which $4,000 may be put toward adventuring gear. This suit of armour will set you back $37,500. Then you will need another $500 for the voiders and fauld. A tailored arming coat isn't cheap, lets say another $500. We'll throw in another $300 for hosen, turnshoes and a few other odds and ends. A sword costs you about $800 from Albion Swords. A lance with vamplate is going to set you back another $200 each, and those things break. $50 for a tilting shield. Your war saddle will set you back $4,900 and your horse will want a shaffron for $1,250 so he looks spiffy, and with his $550 Caparison in your colors. At this point, we are already up to $46,550 and the horse has not even been purchased yet. Taking the cost of the trained heavy warhorse straight from the Basic Set ($5,000) and you get $51,550.

So you would need to be Very Wealthy even at TL8 to be able to purchase said equipment out of your adventuring allowance of starting funds. Of course you could play with that in a number of ways. You might live an otherwise mundane life, but have the armour in your basement, for example, but stables and land still cost you. Also you could be willing to not have historical looking stuff and say you just want "functionality" and bring down the price since the armourer is not trying to custom cast a rivet head from a museum piece for you.

The other route would be to have some armour that is not as nice. You could just go with looking like this guy or this guy and say you have "knightly equipment" and do it on a budget, but oh, the fun the GM will have with you.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:32 PM   #40
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Default Re: Horses, encumbrance and travelling speed

Well its not really an accurate measure of prices since these goods are now luxury goods and there is no a large supply in the market. I'm sure mass production, competition and huge demand created by wartime, the surplus after war, and the regular demand for these goods have a great impact in their price.

although if you consider that a Knight with an annual disposable income of 6k would be spending this wealth to maintain or replace tools of his trade, the total cost of these goods would be around the range of his disposable annual income x a number of years.
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