GURPS Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Actually, one of the saddest things for me is when my work doesn't inspire spinoffs in the way that Powers and Martial Arts – and earlier Dungeon Fantasy supplements – clearly have. For instance, the fact that I wrote three Action volumes and nobody wanted to build on them kind of disappoints me.

I'm sorry to hear that. I mostly saw Action as 'complete' and 'self-contained', ready to play. (Sure, there were Pyramid articles that expanded on it nonetheless.)

I see Psionic Powers as a beautiful worked example that I will never use as-is, but will dissect and scavenge for parts.

As for Thaumatology, I suppose my reaction is also biased by the fact that I'm a Realm Magic fan, and RM didn't get much love compared to RPM. I guess you can tell that I have a Mage the Ascension background.

[JP42]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Well . . .

• GURPS Action has just three releases to four for GURPS Monster Hunters and 17 (and counting) for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. That can't be right.
  
  
• GURPS Bio-Tech has never received an expansion. Surely there are ultra-short and short items possible on specific new technologies, quick-and-cinematic gengineering rules, Powers crossovers for bio-powers, etc.?
  
  
• GURPS Magic has had . . . um, one follow-on (Plant Spells), even though there are 23 other colleges. Surely someone likes the ol' spell-magic system enough that it deserves some love?
  
  
• GURPS Mass Combat still hasn't received a single proposal for worked force rosters, or expanded lists of element types, or an element-design system. Huh, I expected all of those about a week after it came out.
  
  
• GURPS Social Engineering seems terribly lonely for such a social supplement. (Full disclosure requires me to note that I have one in the publication queue.)
  
  
• GURPS Supers has no follow-ons. Whaaa . . . ? Just the FAQs on these forums suggest stuff like GURPS Supers: Speedsters and GURPS Supers: The Ultimate Brick.
  
  
• GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles is itself a spinoff, but where are the worked examples of styles? (Again, full disclosure requires me to note that I have one in the publication queue.)

I'll grant that until our queue starts to clear and we can start accepting proposals again, all of this stuff is academic. However, you asked me about need rather than the practicalities of getting supplements approved, edited, and out the door. :)

Some serious food for thought there. For all that I squeal like a teen at a Beatles show about RPM, I do have a fondness for the original magic system. Maybe there's some room for me to stretch myself, either in worked Styles or in expanding the other colleges.

[PK]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Somehow I feel sad for the original Thaumatology book now that RPM came out and was so cheered by the crowds.

I'm feeling sad that the original Thaumatology didn't seem to have as much anticipation and cheering as RPM, even though it seemed to be a 'heavier' book.

Really? I recall a lot of cheers and love for Thaumatology when it came out. People were excited to see Path/Book and Threshold magic updated to Fourth Edition, the rules for improvised spells were hailed as a godsend, and so on. Perhaps it didn't get quite as much attention as RPM is getting right now, but I think that's more because of the following factors than anything inherent to the book:

1. Thaumatology was released amid a horde of other GURPS books; Ritual Path Magic is the second non-Pyramid book released after a long drought.

2. Thaumatology was mainly seen as a Fourth Edition update to many older, Third Edition systems, while Ritual Path Magic is an expansion and update to a much more recent, popular system. What I mean is that the latter is still a "hot property," which means that people had more emotional investment in seeing it come out.

Anybody else bothered that we now have Path Ritual Magic and Ritual Path Magic; Magery, Ritual Magery, and Magery (Path) and Magery (Ritual Path); Path Adepts and Ritual Adepts?

I hear you. I chose the name "Ritual Path magic" because, to me, it best summed the system up; hopefully it's obvious why. And -- in a vacuum -- I don't think there's any argument that it would have been the best name. But in the context of all these other systems with similar names . . . yeeeah, I admit it can be a tad confusing.

Anyway, if it were a serious issue -- that is, if it were consistently causing problems due to similar names -- we might've considered renaming it for the new book. But it really hasn't been a big deal. And if there's one thing that's been clearly demonstrated over time, it's that renaming thing between versions/editions does cause a lot of confusion. So I feel confident saying that renaming Ritual Path magic, Ritual Adept, etc., would have likely caused more overall confusion at this point, not less.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

• GURPS Bio-Tech has never received an expansion. Surely there are ultra-short and short items possible on specific new technologies, quick-and-cinematic gengineering rules, Powers crossovers for bio-powers, etc.?

Have you seen the amount of protests almost any mentions of BIO result in on the other subforum? Sometimes I feel like pointing at anything biotechy brings down accusations of TL^dom. I love BIO, but I'm really not sure what can be added to it that won't cause more booing. If a serious new BIO add-on comes up, I'm likely to snatch it immediately or the next day (less so if it's a cinematic/supersciency one).

Originally Posted by Kromm

• GURPS Magic has had . . . um, one follow-on (Plant Spells), even though there are 23 other colleges. Surely someone likes the ol' spell-magic system enough that it deserves some love?

Originally Posted by Kromm

• GURPS Thaumatology: Magical Styles is itself a spinoff, but where are the worked examples of styles? (Again, full disclosure requires me to note that I have one in the publication queue.)

Can't comment on this one - I'm a THM fan.

Originally Posted by Kromm

• GURPS Mass Combat still hasn't received a single proposal for worked force rosters, or expanded lists of element types, or an element-design system. Huh, I expected all of those about a week after it came out.

Again, MC seems too controversial (judging by the forum) to be a safe bet.

Originally Posted by Kromm

• GURPS Social Engineering seems terribly lonely for such a social supplement. (Full disclosure requires me to note that I have one in the publication queue.)

And the SE Pyramid was awesome. This one I love too, and maybe it's a matter of the bar being set too high. (E.g. my GM and I have a semi-playable house rule extension for Manipulation rules, but I doubt it's even Pyramid-worthy.)

Originally Posted by Kromm

• GURPS Supers has no follow-ons. Whaaa . . . ? Just the FAQs on these forums suggest stuff like GURPS Supers: Speedsters and GURPS Supers: The Ultimate Brick.

Yeah, that would be nice. Not for me (I don't do Supers, even though I occasionally dive into Powers. Unless I end up running GURPS Exalted-with-serial-numbers-filed-off), but it sure seems like a nice idea in general.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Kromm

GURPS Social Engineering seems terribly lonely for such a social supplement. (Full disclosure requires me to note that I have one in the publication queue.)

I think it's important to mention that we did release Pyramid #3/54: Social Engineering. In light of the whole "Is Pyramid a GURPS supplement?" debate that went on recently, it's worth noting that this issue did meet every condition for being a full add-on supplement, other than having "GURPS" in the actual title. In particular, three of the five sections (The Civil Arts, Speaking in Tongues, and City Management) were very crunchy and directly expanded on the book itself, while the other two (The Palais Du Monde and The Hand of Hermes) served as worked examples ("How to use this book in your games").

Otherwise I totally agree with your list. :)

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm not saying that it's bad that RPM got approval and cheering. I'm reading it now and it looks good. (Somehow I mostly kept away from it. Probably has to do with the campaigns as of late.)

I'm feeling sad that the original Thaumatology didn't seem to have as much anticipation and cheering as RPM, even though it seemed to be a 'heavier' book.

I just finished a campaign for which Thaumatology was instrumental (and had RPM existed at the the time I wouldn't have used it; the magic system that I created for Desolation Road was the perfect fit for what I needed).

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

I'm feeling sad that the original Thaumatology didn't seem to have as much anticipation and cheering as RPM, even though it seemed to be a 'heavier' book.

[Mythbusters]Well, there's your problem.[/Mythbusters]
It was a heavier book - filled with nothing but extra nobs and switches and modules and things, but unlike many GURPS books not even an unspoken "assumed mode of use".

Obviously the entire RPM book is optional in any GURPS game, not just the "options" in it. But most of it is a "prepackaged option" that you can pick up with only one decision to make: do I want RPM in my game world or not.

Thaumatology is a big ol' bag of decisions about decisions about decisions. It inspires a lot of weighty thinking and pondering and planning and fiddling, and because of that it's not accessible to both the impatient GM and the kind of player who just wants a "Book of stuff I can do".

I love Thaumatology. I consider it essential to my GURPS library. But it's a Compendium II to RPM's Compendium I.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Well . . .[LIST][*]GURPS Action has just three releases to four for GURPS Monster Hunters and 17 (and counting) for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy. That can't be right.

Yeah it seems pretty complete but I can think of a couple of ideas to expand it.
Have one in rough note form even. Too early to call it an actual draft or even an outline. Just some ideas.

Originally Posted by Kromm

[*]GURPS Magic has had . . . um, one follow-on (Plant Spells), even though there are 23 other colleges. Surely someone likes the ol' spell-magic system enough that it deserves some love?

I have some ideas, mostly Illusion and Earth, oh an Animal.
However it is less interesting to write.

Originally Posted by Kromm

[*]GURPS Supers has no follow-ons. Whaaa . . . ? Just the FAQs on these forums suggest stuff like GURPS Supers: Speedsters and GURPS Supers: The Ultimate Brick.

Supers and Powers have lots of potential but here is the thing.
For these kinds of works only established authors are accepted.
I submitted a proposal for Powers: Shamanism 5 or 6 years ago, maybe longer it was shortly after Psionic Powers came out. This was even an item on the wish list.
Steven liked the idea but said lines like Powers were too intense and only established GURPS authors need apply.
I understand the position, I really do but it does limit the options and thus no proposals is not the same as no interest.
Even the recommendation to use Pyramid and Playtests to get your start is of limited benefit as the queue is so high and it takes a long time for most of us to wend our way through If we even can.
I have had two proposals accepted and submitted and never heard back after submitting a draft other then we will look at it sometime.

So people like me post less detailed versions of our ideas on the forums.
As for the established authors it seems they have their own pet projects which they have more interest in then writing sequels.

[Kalzazz]

I would love love love to see GURPS Gods or such that expand from the temple of Hephaustus writeup in Thaumatology to show

'This is God X (fictional or mythical or made up then and there)

This is how God X chills with DF style 6 tier PI and also Thaumatology PI
This is how God X chills with Thaumatology Divine College Ritual Magic
This is how God X chills with Divine Favor
This is how God X chills with RPM

That would be a sweet pyramid article with 1 god, or a book with say a pantheon or random sampling

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

This is how God X chills with DF style 6 tier PI and also Thaumatology PI
This is how God X chills with Thaumatology Divine College Ritual Magic
This is how God X chills with Divine Favor
This is how God X chills with RPM

So "Thor casts Create Food to get mead. He uses Create Food but defaults it from Food College for mead. He just makes mead appear as a Minor Blessing. He uses Create Matter to make mead"?