Military Cybershells - just how ubiquitous are they?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Keiko

One my least favorite things about the setting.

Something that's probably a design flaw in retrospect. Not that it's inherently ridiculous, but it makes a better setting if the technologies are more clearly in conflict, rather than one on an inexorable path to supplant the other (note that this isn't even necessarily true -- but it's the implication of the 4th/5th wave logic).

[David Johnston2]

It is necessarily true, because they made machine superior in every way to organic.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It is necessarily true, because they made machine superior in every way to organic.

Or if there's an advantage to organics, they do a bad job of explaining what that advantage is. However, even if you adjust tech assumptions to give bio more of a role, the basic role of 'gun platform' is very well suited to hard tech; you might use bio in situations where low maintenance or low signature is important, but it's hard to justify bio being competitive in raw thuggery (in fact, cybershells underperform in certain combat tasks, 'shooting guns' is something where computers beat wetware starting at late TL 6).

[vicky_molokh]

Well, the almost-modern MCS-64 seems like a logistic nightmare compared to the American Spartan, and the modern RATS are even more so. The question is whether the gain is worth it (which the books seem to be ambiguous about, and there's a strong opinion that yes, it is).

Are things like Special Forces mostly composed of officers or enlisted? Books seem to say that it's the enlisted that are mostly replaced by bioroids and cyber/bioshells, while officers are mostly human.

[David Johnston2]

Officers aren't human because they're actually better. Since any human mind can be flawlessly uploaded that is absolutely not true. They're human because humanity isn't quite willing as yet to relinquish control.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Are things like Special Forces mostly composed of officers or enlisted? Books seem to say that it's the enlisted that are mostly replaced by bioroids and cyber/bioshells, while officers are mostly human.

From what I can determine on quick checks, mostly enlisted. However, special forces are atypical enough that generic statements like that are of limited value.

I would say that a unit whose job is "go in and break stuff" will be mostly cybershells. It's unclear what the original job of the security team you were talking about was -- are they the guards for the diplomatic mission (who very well might be bio), or are they the rapid reaction force that got sent in when the **** hit the fan (who would almost certainly be cyber).

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

It is necessarily true, because they made machine superior in every way to organic.

It's not either/or: Vicky's done a good job of showing how bioroid mooks are cheaper than mookbots, and I've tried to show they are more secure/reliable.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I would say that a unit whose job is "go in and break stuff" will be mostly cybershells. It's unclear what the original job of the security team you were talking about was -- are they the guards for the diplomatic mission (who very well might be bio), or are they the rapid reaction force that got sent in when the **** hit the fan (who would almost certainly be cyber).

To give a bit of background:

Based on some international agreement into whose details even Caine would rather not dive, a commission was assembled for the purpose of visiting a certain significant object in GEO. Various factions get something like 2-4 slots to fill with whatever specialists they deem appropriate, as long as the paperwork is handled and certain rules are followed. It was clear that something is fishy on the object, but the due to the way things were kept, nobody in the commission or its assemblers knew what. Cybershells were not prohibited, but bringing a RATS would probably not look nice on the international arena.

So it was basically a case of 'get ready for trouble, but do not look like you are preparing for trouble' (and definitely don't look like you are preparing to cause trouble!).

USA decided to pick three military humans and an indentured bioroid (advanced post-Felicia derivative model). Then a Charlie Foxtrot occurred (long story), because 'Yes, Felicia, they do have terrorists onboard'.

On of the other players considered USA's choice of non-infomorph, non-cybershell commission members very stupid, particularly given the fact that USA did pick military people for the delegation in the first place.

Which got me wondering just how much of the militaries are replaced by infomorph/cybershells, particularly in Fourth Wave states like the USA, and particularly given that THS military TL is 9 while the rest is TL10, and given that USA still makes military bioroids anyway. And whether the 'not looking for trouble' would've actually changed much.

IOW, this is a specific in-game incident that piqued setting-wide generic curiosity.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So it was basically a case of 'get ready for trouble, but do not look like you are preparing for trouble'

Ah. I don't see anything especially weird about using biosophants under those conditions, though I'd generally have included a sensor platform cybershell. On the other hand, I'm not sure a bush robot would have improved the combat situation any ;). You could include an infiltration android, but its performance doesn't deeply impress me.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Owen Smith

The politics of not looking like you're preparing for trouble dictate sending biologicals. Things like a RATS have a Monstrous appearance and the reaction penlaties that go with it for a reason.

Oh, Monsters! Thanks.

For some reason I forgot that not only RATS, but even most humanoid military shells are abominated in the civilised world (Social Stigma: Monster).

Originally Posted by Anthony

Ah. I don't see anything especially weird about using biosophants under those conditions, though I'd generally have included a sensor platform cybershell. On the other hand, I'm not sure a bush robot would have improved the combat situation any ;). You could include an infiltration android, but its performance doesn't deeply impress me.

We built an MCS-52H (essentially a poor man's infiltration gynoid; the big point being that it has no Social Stigma), but the difference was indeed mostly about DR10 (which was not much help against HEMP) and Unliving (which kinda did help). Then again, I wouldn't've done that if not for the Legal Immunity.