Limited use and Maximum Duration out of whack?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Max Duration was originally specific to Shapeshifting in the playtest ms of POWERS, where it was not just a question of waiting to use it again but of blowing your cover permanently. It was generalized to work with other abilities, but no adjustment in values was discussed.

Limited Use and possible variants was mentioned during the 4/e playtest, but was put off for lack of customer complaints and shortness of time. I belatedly remembered shortly after the end of comments on POWERS, but as it hadn't been the subject of a single erratum or Q&A in the ten years of Kromm's administration up to that time, it was again excused from discussion.

Personally, I think Limited Use is stingy, and "should" give more discount than it does, but since those values are 20 years old, and Max Duration is only 4 years old, it may be easier to convince the Editorial Powers that Max Duration is too liberal instead.

Interesting history there. However, regarding the age of this value, I would ask anyone with an older (2e?) version of Supers to take a look -- I have this recollection that a 'use' once meant an HOUR, not a minute.

[Figleaf23]

Yes! Here we are, for example, in my copy of Psionics (1991) it says (p.28): "If this limitation is applied to an advantage, each hour (or fraction thereof) that is on constitutes one 'use'."

Based on what Jeff Wilson said, I'll bet someone unthinkingly switched it to minutes at some point and the playtesters just never noticed the problem.

If we return Limited Use to an hourly basis, then the fix for my problem would probably be to apply Switchable +10 to the limitation using the method in the box on p.B111 (and the costs scale much more sensibly with Max Duration as well).

[PK]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Limited Use is out of whack with everything.

Peter speaks the truth, quite simply. I'm experimenting with the following house rule, but it hasn't been playtested enough for my liking yet. Anyone who wants to borrow it, feel free, and I'd love for you to let me know how it works for you:

HOUSE RULE

The values given for Limited Use assume that the character can head back to a central location (something at least as bulky as "the trunk of my car") and reload after the fact. In other words, it represents total uses in a single situation, or in an adventure where he's cut off from his supply.

If he can only use his ability a few times a day, no matter what, double the value of the limitation.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

Peter speaks the truth, quite simply.

In my opinion, all of the "number of uses" restrictions (I'm thinking of Limited Use, Costs FP, and Max Duration here) are hard to balance against standard GURPS advantages for three reasons:

1) The default assumption is that most advantages cost nothing to use.
2) The currency that GURPS has for powering abilities (FP) is, for normal humans, a very small pool (10). This means that the smallest possible cost for an ability, 1 FP or 1 use from limited uses, is not a trivial cost.
3) GURPS combat is *very* granular. Combat-scale instant abilities might need to be used dozens of times in a scene, but time-use abilities -- even at 1 minute per use -- are rarely needed more than once.

This is one area where I think the assumptions of the HERO game system, which I also like, are just a little easier to balance than GURPS. In HERO, the default assumption is that most abilities have a cost to use them (In HERO, this is END). A normal human's END pool is 20 points, not 10, and heroic normals are in the 30's (give or take). Also, unlike GURPS these points are recovered on the combat time scale.

I think when I do advantages-based-magic for a future GURPS campaign (currently only a gleam in my eye) I'm going to use this default assumption. All advantages costs FP (or some other pool) to power, and No-Cost abilities are an advantage; the HERO costs for this are effectively a +50% enhancement for 1/2 cost and +100% enhancement for no cost.

Incidentally, the HERO approach helps with limited use, too. Any ability with the limited use limitation doesn't have an END cost.

[Figleaf23]

Personally, I never had a problem with Limited Use in its original one-hour per 'use' for advantages form. I simply cannot imagine that anyone would have changed it to a mere minute deliberately (especially given the imbalance revealed with Max. Duration). So I'll just assume that's an erratum and go by the hourly method.

Regarding Costs Fatigue, I agree with Bookman, the gulf between
(a) free, continuous use in the unmodified form and
(b) a finite and fairly severe limit with even one point of FP
is faaaaaaaar from adequately represented by the values provided. My house rule is that Costs Fatigue is -10% PLUS -5% per fatigue point.

As for Max Duration as written, I have no problems with it.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

My house rule is that Costs Fatigue is -10% PLUS -5% per fatigue point.

As for Max Duration as written, I have no problems with it.

Severely alters the value of FP Regeneration (Fast or better), though.

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Severely alters the value of FP Regeneration (Fast or better), though.

Can you explain this a little more?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Can you explain this a little more?

Altering the value of Costs FP always alters the usefulness of Regeneration (FP).

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Altering the value of Costs FP always alters the usefulness of Regeneration (FP).

You said it "severely alters" the usefulness of Regeneration (FP). Do you think that if Costs FP is priced the way FigLeaf suggests, that this is a big enough change in the utility of Regeneration (FP) that its cost has to change?

I wouldn't think so, but I tend to play GURPS down in the shallow end of the points pool, and abilities like Fast or Very Fast regeneration are not really on the menu, so to speak.

[Langy]

Regen (FP) is already severely overpriced - altering the cost of Costs FP won't make it significantly more or less balanced.