Maximum Duration Limitation on Alternate Form or Morph, abusive?

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If your base form isn't your strongest form, you've got a strongest form that you pay a bunch for, and other forms that you pay less for because they're cheaper alternatives.

If your base form is your strongest form, then every alternate form is a cheaper alternative to that base form. The first one doesn't cost more than the others because you're giving up your natural racial template to use it.

So what? The point is that you are charging the full cost for alternate abilities in this case.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by blacksmith

So what? The point is that you are charging the full cost for alternate abilities in this case.

Hang on for a moment. What are you giving up by putting it in an alternate ability?

You can't be a squirrel and a trout at the same time. You can't be a human and a trout at the same time. There's nothing to give up here in exchange for putting it in an alternate ability.

A limitation that doesn't limit you isn't a limitation, a disadvantage that doesn't disadvantage you isn't a disadvantage. If Kromm meant for eveyrone to always put Alternate Forms in an AA array, it would be priced 15 points for the first form, 3 points for each form afterward, plus 90% of the cost of your most expensive form.

It's not priced like that.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

HuH? You don't apply Alternate Abilities to Alternate Forms. AF already gets a big point break in that you only have to pay for the single most expensive form. Applying AA to it is just plain silly.

Actually it seems to me that the RAW version of Alternate Form is more abusable than if the Alternate Ability rules were used instead.

I'm building these forms on my own, basing them off the Meta-Trait templates in Characters, but tweaking a lot of things. Adding this, removing that.

So far, I've built the Fire Form, which turned out to be surprisingly cheap (I had expected it to be very expensive), and the Stone Form which turned out to be surprisingly expensive even though I've added a bunch of disads that makes sense to me, such as Bad Grip, Ham-Fisted and Cannot Speak.

Since these are build-it-yourself Alternate Forms, I'm strongly tempted to pimp the Fire Form further, by increasing its ranged Innate Attack and its Fire Aura[1] and its vs Fire DR. In fact I have already raised those a bit, but my point is, I could raise them even more, without having to pay a single CP for it, as long as the Fire Form costs fewer CPs than the Stone Form - and it does cost a lot less.

I haven't created the Air Form or the Water Form yet, but I'm assuming (slash hoping) they'll be cheaper than the Stone Form. The Air Form has specific stuff it needs, and that's it, but the Water Form is primarly a healing form so I can always use extra CPs to pimp its Healing some more, e.g. with Reduced Fatigue and perhaps even with Ranged.


[1] These two, by the way, are not bought as Alternate Abilities since the Fire Aura is always on, even when the Fire Form is shooting Fire Lances. So it seems to me as if Alternate Ability would be illegal, or at least highly questionable.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Molokh

While mutually AAing AFs indeed looks questionable, I wonder if there is anything wrong with making AF an AA of Morph, or making Morph the AA of AF. I suppose it's okay, but I'm not sure enough without Kromm's backing.

Since my character concept has both Morph and 4 AFs (and they're part of the same Power), I'm very interested in this.

I don't expect Morph to be very costly, since it'll be heavily nerfed with Cosmetic Only and so forth, but it's still interesting.

[Anaraxes]

What are you giving up by putting it in an alternate ability?...
You can't be a squirrel and a trout at the same time

That was my first thought, but then it occurred to me you can't use two different attacks at the same time, either. Either Green Arrow attacks with the sharp arrow, or he attacks with the gas grenade. Why would any Alternate Attack get a discount, since you only get one Attack maneuver per turn anyway? Alternate Abilities with some significant duration, sure. But attacks are inherently short term.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

That was my first thought, but then it occurred to me you can't use two different attacks at the same time, either. Either Green Arrow attacks with the sharp arrow, or he attacks with the gas grenade. Why would any Alternate Attack get a discount, since you only get one Attack maneuver per turn anyway? Alternate Abilities with some significant duration, sure. But attacks are inherently short term.

Extra Attack, rapid strike, AoA double and DWA. There are ways to make more than one attack in your maneuver. You can only ever use one mode of an alternate ability in any one turn.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Extra Attack, rapid strike, AoA double and DWA. There are ways to make more than one attack in your maneuver. You can only ever use one mode of an alternate ability in any one turn.

Ding. Exactly what I was going to post.. You have to buy Extra Attack to get benefit from it normally but the other options are available to everyone - and you could default Extra Attack from another ability if you're using the rules from Powers and your GM thinks your other ability is appropriate.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Since my character concept has both Morph and 4 AFs (and they're part of the same Power), I'm very interested in this.

I don't expect Morph to be very costly, since it'll be heavily nerfed with Cosmetic Only and so forth, but it's still interesting.

I wouldn't have a problem with Morph and AF being AAs of each other. However, keep in mind that if you have Cosmetic Morph and AF (Wolf) you can shapeshift into your Wolf form then use Cosmetic Morph to look like any Wolf, Dog, or other similar Quadruped. If they are AAs of each other you wouldn't be able to do that - AF allows you to turn into one specific alternate form, which looks exactly the same every time you change into it.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Hang on for a moment. What are you giving up by putting it in an alternate ability?

You can't be a squirrel and a trout at the same time. You can't be a human and a trout at the same time. There's nothing to give up here in exchange for putting it in an alternate ability.

And with alternate attacks you can generally only attack once a turn so only use one attack. So attacks should not get alternate attacks?

They represent a single ability used in different ways, if you lost one you would lose them all.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Ding. Exactly what I was going to post.. You have to buy Extra Attack to get benefit from it normally but the other options are available to everyone - and you could default Extra Attack from another ability if you're using the rules from Powers and your GM thinks your other ability is appropriate.

That seems a pretty tenuous logic. Being restricted to one attack type per turn is a very small limitation. The thing is that having multiple types of attack is not generally better than having one much more powerful attack. Here you are reducing the strength of the alternate form for more versatility.

The 90% thing on only the most powerful form if it is not your native form, is not a cost break for the rest though.

If you think that you should never get a cost break on alternate forms fine, I don't agree with that. And the alternate ability rules do not force GM's to allow things in that they don't want.

So we are both perfectly with in the rules to allow or prevent it.