Alternatives to the Throwing rules

[Kelly Pedersen]

Starting a new thread on this to avoid derailing the old one. The messages that kicked this off:

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Frankly, I've thought for a while that what the throwing mechanics need is to simply define a range of "thrown object" sizes, and give them their own weapon stats. So you'd have a "tiny thrown object" that did Thr-2, had so much Acc, Range X20/X30, Min ST 3, and a weight comparable to a golf ball, a "small thrown object" with slightly better damage and higher Min ST, but lower range, and so forth. The rule about ST not exceeding three times Min ST could effectively cap things, so a ST 500 superhero doesn't get absolutely stupid results from throwing a golfball. Rather than working out damage and range by calculating a ratio every time someone threw something, you'd just figure out which type of thrown weapon it counted as based on weight, and just use those stats.

Originally Posted by naloth

I'd rather not fumble with a table if possible. You could probably create a simple formula to calculate the base damage modifier, min ST, and range on the HP/weight of the object pretty easily then generate a sample chart for the math-phobic using that formula.

My own feeling is that a set of weapon tables is actually less complicated than any sort of formula, since weapon table formats are well-understood by the typical player. I think it's always going to be easier to quickly glance at the weapons, say "okay", that's a Small Thrown Object, and just figure the damage, rather than using a formula to get the numbers.

I'll try to write out a few examples of what I'm talking about in a bit here, I just wanted to post this to get the thread started.

[zedlopez]

After a bunch of number crunching, I noticed that for objects up to 8 lbs. across most of the human strength range, just saying "throwing an object does your thrust damage" is off by 2 or less. (Specifically, looking at Strengths 8-21 and objects of 2 oz., 4 oz., 8 oz., 1 lb., 2 lb., 4 lb., and 8 lb., the only points at which the divergence was more than 2 was at Strengths 19 and up throwing a 2 oz. object.)

Edit: There's an enormous honking error in the above -- I forgot how to read the table I made. It wasn't absolute weights of .125 lbs., .25 lbs, .5 lbs., etc., those were multipliers of Basic Lift. This makes "just use thrust damage" a not bad rule of thumb across a really wide range of weights, diverging by more than 2 from the exact result from the rules only for things < about 20 lbs. for people of Strengths 19-21.

[naloth]

I'm not sure how readable this will be, but using normal ST progression (and presuming you'd reach the higher numbers by means outlined in Supers), here's a weight/damage chart:

ST, BL (ST*ST/5), 1/8 BL (Thr-2), 1/4 BL (Thr-1), 1/2 BL (Thr), BL (Thr+1), BLx2 (Thr), BLx4 (Thr-1), BLx8 (Thr-1/2), where the modifier is per die rather than a flat bonus if you're using normal ST rules.

ST BL Thr-2 Thr-1 Thr Thr+1 Thr Thr-1/2 Thr-1
10 20 2.5 5 10 20 40 80 160
12 28.8 3.6 7.2 14.4 28.8 57.6 115.2 230.4
15 45 5.625 11.25 22.5 45 90 180 360
20 80 10 20 40 80 160 320 640
30 180 22.5 45 90 180 360 720 1440
50 500 62.5 125 250 500 1000 2000 4000
100 2000 250 500 1000 2000 4000 8000 16000
120 2880 360 720 1440 2880 5760 11520 23040
220 9680 1210 2420 4840 9680 19360 38720 77440
320 20480 2560 5120 10240 20480 40960 81920 163840

This might actually be more useful. Here's the distance you can throw based on ST for a lightest (under 1/20 BL) and the heaviest (BLx8) item you can throw without using extra effort:
ST min max
10 35 0.8
12 42 0.96
15 52.5 1.2
20 70 1.6
30 105 2.4
50 175 4
100 350 8
120 420 9.6
220 770 17.6
320 1120 25.6

As an interesting note, the military expects most (presumably ST10) recruits to be able to throw a grenade (1lb) about 25 yards. Those same recruits should be able to lob a baseball (under 1/3 lb) over 50 yards.

[naloth]

Here's a (very rough) proposal which gives a bit more on the high end of weight, a bit less on the low end, but drastically cuts the amount of stuff you need to remember or compute. I've tried to use math that's easy to do (1/10 or half) or would otherwise be noted on your character sheet (BLx3).

We can break down throwing into stuff that's BL/10 or less, up to 1/2 BL, up to BL, up to BLx3, and up to BLx8.

-BL/10: Range x2.5, Thr-2 per die.
-BL/2: Range x.8, Thr-1 per die.
-BL: Range x.5, Thr.
-BLx3: Range x.2, Thr+1 per die.
-BLx8: Range x.1, Thr per die.

To keep characters from using light objects (relative to their BL), we can also assign the min ST to be relative to the weight which limits both range and damage. Off hand I'm thinking min ST = object HP? A baseball would be ~HP6, for a max of ST18. A 1k motorcycle would have a min ST around 40 (max ST 120 for 13d damage at 60 yards). If that seems low, we could use 8 x cube root for everything (effectively looking up the ST/HP value for all objects as if they were homogeneous)?

This, of course, could be used to generate a consistent sample table for quick lookups on common values.

Thoughts?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by naloth

As an interesting note, the military expects most (presumably ST10) recruits to be able to throw a grenade (1lb) about 25 yards. Those same recruits should be able to lob a baseball (under 1/3 lb) over 50 yards.

[Nitpick]Many grenades are over 1lb in weight.[/Nitpick] That happens to put them in the 1-2 lb. range for an ST10 thrower, for a range of 25 yards.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Rupert

[Nitpick]Many grenades are over 1lb in weight.[/Nitpick] That happens to put them in the 1-2 lb. range for an ST10 thrower, for a range of 25 yards.

You wouldn't happen to know range by weight? I went off what was in Characters and what I did for a quick google search. (Otherwise we need stronger recruits...)

[Rupert]

My recollection from my time in service was that a grenade was a grenade as far as the Army was concerned when you were throwing them.

Also, they were much less concerned about range (aside from getting the thing out of the thrower's stand on the range), and more concerned about you being able to put one through a house window at 5-10m after running a considerable distance in combat kit.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

My own feeling is that a set of weapon tables is actually less complicated than any sort of formula, since weapon table formats are well-understood by the typical player. I think it's always going to be easier to quickly glance at the weapons, say "okay", that's a Small Thrown Object, and just figure the damage, rather than using a formula to get the numbers.

It should be noted that another option is to use the GURPS Calculator.

[coronatiger]

You can also use my Excel character sheet. The Calculations tab has a formula for calculating throwing distance, among other things. Link is in my signature.

[Mark Skarr]

I'd like something based on BL since I use LogST for my super heroes and the basic throwing rules . . . are lacking for the "low" ST values. So, going off of what Naloth had suggested . . ..

Something like (random numbers chosen for example sake):
<BL/10, Range: BL x 10, Damage: Thr-2/die
BL/10-BL/5, Range: BL x 3, Damage: Thr -1/die
>BL/5-BL, Range: BL, Damage: Thr
>BL-BLx3, Range: BL x ½, Damage: Thr +1/die
>BLx3-BLx8, Range: BL x ¼, Damage: Thr