02-07-2018, 09:02 PM | #31 | ||||||
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgGenOdq9iY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7IsFQLjRNU Basically, you can build a helmet that's made from say, steel alloy, titanium, and aluminum, blending materials and shapes to maximize protection in likely strike zones while minimizing weight and using the best material for each area. You could have aluminum reinforcing bands inside the helmet, for instance, providing flex, that just blends into a rigid hard outer surface to deflect blows with no seams or connectors whatsoever. The whole thing could have fluting and various construction (captive infills, like triangles or i-beams, for torsional stiffness) to make it lighter and tougher as a result. That's not something you ever could build by hand. And it'd be fairly simple. It's just using one of those expensive metal 3d printers and a 3d printing file. Print, test. Adjust. Print, test, etc. Once it's perfect you scale it to fit the wearer and print. Quote:
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02-07-2018, 09:06 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Austin, TX
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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I guess you need Machinist to do the drilling, but this is apprentice level stuff: put a stencil over the scale, mark the 7 spots you're going to drill, clamp the scale to the drill press, work the press 7 times. I'd want to do it in an assembly line, with one guy marking the spots and two guys on two different drill presses drilling the holes because one hole is a different width than the other. Sewing to Body Armor (Fabric) seems like it would be at -3, same as Smith or Machinist.
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02-07-2018, 11:46 PM | #33 | |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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That said, body armor can certainly outperform vehicular armor, but it's also much more expensive. |
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02-08-2018, 01:57 AM | #34 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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I'm aware that the company was subject to a recall in 2016, specifically for claiming higher proof than all of its armour could meet, but these are their currently offered products, ones who presumably passed muster in place of the recalled ones. That being said, AR500 steel alloy plates are made by other companies as well and the resistance to bullet penetration is not implausible in itself. Such steel is used, for example, in making steel targets to shoot that are light enough to move when struck, but don't get damaged, so being proof against bullets at the same time as being lightweight is kind of the primary design goal of the material, long before anyone started using it as wearable armour (well, trauma plates). Spalling and ricochets make such armour much riskier than other, more expensive kind of ballistic inserts, but as far as DR goes, abrasion resistant steel alloys with extremely high hardness appear to legitimately possess enough to stop high-powered rifle rounds with fairly thin and light plates. There is no problem with a TL8 steel alloy with a Cost of ca $20 per point of DR to a square foot significantly outperforming the TL6 'Hard Steel' from Pulver's ''Cutting-Edge Armor Design' in Pyramid #3/85, which only has a Cost of $3.5 for the same metric. After all, higher TL and more expensive materials are supposed to perform better. It's like a fundamental assumption of GURPS armour design. The problem is that there is already a material meant to represnt advanced TL8 steel alloys statted in the article and by the stats you would need about 20% heavier plates of it to get enough DR to stop standard velocity M80 7.62x51mm NATO. Game mechanically, it would therefore be elegant to give armour made from AR500 steel alloy up to 50% higher DR against piercing attacks than some (or all) other attacks. It would prevent it from outperforming the same weight of TL8 'Ultra-Hard Steel', at $30 per point of DR a square foot, which is meant to represent cutting-edge stuff like triple hardened steels and nano-crystalline steels. On the other hand, I'm not sure whether AR500 steels are any worse at resisting other kinds of attacks. Yes, it seems fairly intuitive that very high surface hardness would be more helpful against small, fast-moving penetrators with less hardness than the armour, than it would be against, for example, crushing damage, but these are wear-resistant steel alloys, also used in heavy construction, mining, etc. But there has to be some reason actual TL8 vehicular armour is made from different steel alloys, if it's made from steel. The practical difficulties involved in making stuff other than Solid sheets of flat or gently curving plates out of such high hardness steel alloys might be one reason. I was sort of hoping that there might be other reasons, as well.
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02-08-2018, 02:15 AM | #35 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Essentially, could it connect together seperate pieces of higher DR armour which can't easily be worked into the shapes necessary to make comfortable, wearable body armour? And make it look like a movie-knight breastplate or cuirass, rather than some trauma plates cludged together? I get that the DR for the shaped parts would be much lower (they'd still be 16G or thicker armour constructed from the strongest alloys of steel and titanium possible for a 3D printer, but they sure as hell wouldn't be rated against rifle rounds), but I'm wondering how practical it is to use 3D printing for the essentially cosmetic function of making this look like 'real plate' harness and not like a higher tech coat of plates or brigandine, which is what you'd get if you used fabric (probably ballistic, with maybe an aesthetic outer liner of leather or other appropriate looking material) to tie together the seperate alloy pieces.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! Last edited by Icelander; 02-08-2018 at 02:22 AM. |
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02-08-2018, 02:40 AM | #36 | |||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Is the Cost listed for polymer composite in 'Cutting-Edge Armor Design' in line with what it would cost to buy actual resin-bonded Kevlar online today (well, 2015-2017)? And what are other uses for that material than making body armour, as I assume at least someone in Vargas' organisation needs to worry about cover businesses and preferably not making it too easy for the DEA, ICE/HSI and other alphabet agencies to follow everything he does online by tracking the numerous red flags, and then passing the data on to Mexican authorities. I mean, sure, he has protection from the Sinaloa cartel now and they pay good money to avoid pesky police attention or raids by the Mexican Marines, but it probably makes the polished diplomats who make the payments quite irate if the compensated parties have to keep covering up clear evidence of not only illegal activities, but actual small-scale industry to equip guerilla soldiers. So, is it easy to have some legitimate business he extorts order resin-bonded kevlar for some mundane purpose or would it immediately suggest body armour manufacture? Quote:
Combined with what might be fairly professional-grade kevlar undershirts by now, it sounds like fairly effective Level IIIA body armour that might even increase survivability against rifle rounds somewhat. Quote:
Which is excellent. After a couple of years of sewing kevlar for their use, the Knigt Templars probably have reasonably skilled workers in those who have displayed enough valuable talent to survive all that time.
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02-08-2018, 03:47 AM | #37 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Central Europe
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
For gauntlets and trigger guards ... gauntlets are great for backhanding people and looking tough. Japanese kote should work as-is since they don't enclose the fingers. Some gunmen might end up in SCA fingerless gauntlets, or the kind of gauntlet with one lame over the first knuckle of all four fingers. For the rest, do Cartel gunmen really have great weapon-carriage and trigger discipline? Anyone can saw off a trigger guard ...
You might look at what IMCF/HMB fighters wear for inspiration, because I would expect that some of these gunmen are fans. Quote:
It is pretty common that Chinese companies don't deliver the exact materials which they promised, because the supply chain there is such a mess and everything is changing so fast. I don't know anything about high-tech steels in the thicknesses used to stop rifle rounds, though.
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02-08-2018, 04:56 AM | #38 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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V.cool! ... Quote:
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02-08-2018, 04:56 AM | #39 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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Right OK first off I guess I should go into a bit of detail of my thinking about this question. So as a project what your really trying to do here is find, access and employ a series of pretty bespoke skills and resources in the right order. The two main parts are going to be (obvs) design and manufacture. (The later decaling etc is in terms of resources and accessibility is IMO practically an afterthought!) Now as much as I love the armour design articles they kind of deal in raw manufacture detail. And that's fine for established mature technologies in ongoing industries. Also TBH there are posters in this tread who have more knowledge then me in material science and specific tooling processes who can explain the detail of how that works. However my POV is unless were dealing with incredibly expensive materials or accessing incredibly expensive tooling or developing new materials from scratch. The actual cost of material, workshop and tool time is not going to be the real cost here. For me the real cost is actually going to be whatever the figure is that keeps the company on the phone long enough to really consider the project. In my mind you have two ways to go with this: 1). companies who are in an industry that just happens to involve the materials you are talking and working them into things. The problem here for you is there is no such thing as a modern day industry for plate armour of the spec you talking about. (The modern day equivalent is of course the modern day body armour industry which you already mentioned and repurposing what's commercial available is an option I think). So we are talking about them having to work out if they can do it, then working out what the value for the hassle of doing so. Honestly I think that's a calculation more based on percentage of annual turn over and company size than actually unit cost of making TL8 modern plate! I'm pretty certain for example where I work we wouldn't even look at this for anything less than a couple of million. But we're not that small, and you'd be gettin in the way of regular ongoing business and we'd make you pay for that. But the slight silver lining there is that price probably wouldn't change that much depending on how many you wanted and how many trial pieces we'd make (in terms of the numbers you've mentioned anyway) 2). bespoke small workshops who's bread and butter is hyper specific special jobs. They'll be more accommodating but will charge you for that. Now I don't work for such place so no real idea of price but you pay for the flexibility and specialism. This might be cheaper depending on their size but I think your options for people who can do it more more limited. Right so there's also the design phase, this I think will be easier, not because the skill and knowledge is easier, but because the industries that work in human ergonomics and CAD are more insync with what you want than the manufacturers. Although to be fair as CADCAM gets more integrated the line may well blur more and more between these two parts! Sadly I can't help you here really. The last time I worked with freelance designers directly was in the early 00's and it was in different area all together. But my instinct is this is going to be more about billable days on agreed contractor rates and not "they what us to do what...?!" pricing, so I want to say $10,000's? But again I think a lot of this is going to be an upfront cost of the whole project not really about per unit. One aspect IME people with skills who use them to make stuff day to day that doesn't necessarily interest them often like fresh interesting challenges to those skills! On the legality thing, OK TBH I don't think its going to be that much of issue so long as they're not daft about it. 1). Criminals and criminal organisation buy stuff all the time from legal businesses. IMO the key factor here is what the product or service is, and how dual purpose it is. Ultimately most industries sell according to the limitations and regulations that are on them. And well to be frank people are often willing to rationalise perceived grey areas in the face of wads of cash. So for instance drug cartels were quite heavy purchasers of security equipment, like doors, fences etc. Now some times that's because you want your family in your drug funded mansion to be secure from the occasional cartel hit squad, but sometimes it's because you want to ensure your brothel full of child sex slaves don't escape. Many companies don't look too hard or try not to imagine the worst case scenarios. For a larger scale example British companies were quite happy to sell anti riot equipment to various countries around the world, Police forces need anti riot equipment right, it's a legitimate need? But they looked a bit green around the gills when their stuff was later shown to be cracking pro-democracy demonstrators skulls on youtube. We're talking about armour, not industrial chemistry sets to manufacture drugs, or spiked toddler fighting suits. On top of that we're talking specifically weird anachronistic armour. Some willing parts of the process might well just say to themselves "well it's not like I'm making the guns they'll be firing back at those this armour is stopping" or "well this armor can't be helping the that much it's olden days stuff". On the dual purpose thing here with armour. So I'm willing to bet that is parts parts of the world were there are restrictions on the body armour industry on who they sell their products to. Or at least some due diligence is required. But well we not talking about the body armour industry here, we talking about weird high spec replicas of plate armour which while in terms of actual capability might be a distinction without a difference but when it comes to industry standards and due diligence (and sleeping well at night) it can make a difference 2). Don't have some chap with the last supper tattooed on his face turn up on the doorstep! (not that I think you would). Have some agent pose as a representative for some eccentric oil prince. And well you are making weird body armour for the security detail of an eccentric SWAsian playboy. Everyone "knows" these rich oil princes splurge huge wads of cash on weird, bizarre and impractical things right? People often just like a plausible story to hang on their weird but well paying customer. (Real life example of splurging. My mother in law's boyfriend is a skipper who teaches sailing and has been in the community for decades. He and I were in a pub chatting to some bloke who works for a company who refits luxury yachts. Now the project that was basically funding the company that year was swapping all the wood out of someone's super yacht to the tune of £10m's. This was being done because the old wood that had cost a fortune to put in in the first place, was apparently not the fashionable wood for super yachts!) Now not all parts can be kept so separate, those scary chaps with tattoos are going to have go for fittings etc, but I think you'll still be able to box off the different aspects enough so that the minimum amount of people on the project know the real story. Right anyway sorry I realise I've gone on a different tack than most in this thread, those are my thoughts. But again this sounds like a cool setting! Good luck with it Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-08-2018 at 06:27 AM. |
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02-08-2018, 05:24 AM | #40 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: [Cutting-Edge Armor Design] Real World SCA-legal Armour and Ballistics Armour
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I have direct experience* that when it comes to buying steel (or rather things made of specified grades of material including steel) what you order is not always what you get. especially in situations with difference might be be arrapent without specific testing i.e finished products *we often do test purchases of items that claim to be of certain properties and they often aren't (however they are cheap even when they are!) Sorry just to say it's not that this never happens anywhere else, just that it is a known issue in China and to an extent India Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-08-2018 at 05:48 AM. |
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cutting-edge armor design, hema, jade serenity, pyramid #3/85, sca |
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