KYOS and Battlesuits?

[Tomsdad]

As an addendum

There is also the point that get made that a Good GM should adjust a campaign or provide situations that allows a player who's taken a specific trait to shine

and yes in abstract yes I absolutely agree with this, but that also has to be balanced with

a). not breaking the campaign

and

B). not disadvantaging the other characters.


The problem is the more a certain trait is replaced by genre inkeeping alternatives in terms of it utility the harder it is to avoid doing either of the two.

And it not just clashes of TL and trait, but campaign expectations as well. To go back to the example I gave above. If I'm running a wilderness exploration adventure it going to be somewhat jarring to give one character they're full value for money on all the CPs they spent on those courtly intrigue and romance traits. and If I do spend my time refocusing my campaign in them whet do all the other PCs who spent CPs on wilderness survival traits do?

Even if I just mix it up a bit to please all, at some point the players will start to ask why do we keep meeting these courtiers who need romancing/intriguing while also fighting off wolf packs, working out how to cross raging rivers and foraging for food in the back of beyond?

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

This seems like it would have some real-world research already done on it for some reality-checking.

Oddly, looking it up, many sources seems to report the effect as a strength multiplier, based on the weight the user feels. Being an actual multiplier (such that a BL 20 person goes to BL 400, say, while a BL 39 person goes to BL 780) doesn't seem to make sense, but it should be noted the verbiage is something like "100 pounds feels like only five pounds for the suit’s user." The fact the user feels some weight, and the fact that this weight seems to scale with the weight of whatever is being lifted, implies that the user's muscles are contributing. This in turn leads to the "add BL" rather than "replace ST" interpretation. At the same time, many articles mention a specific weight the suit will lift. The above article mentions being able to safely lift up to 200 lb... but with the strength multiplier given (x20), one would expect a worker could safely lift more than that (as that would feel like 10 lb). That implies something more like the "replace ST" model. So, with a brief search online, it's... really hard to say.

I don't think there's been any real research into exoskeletons improving Striking ST. Only the military would have use for that, and the military isn't that interested in making melee striking better (note many modern rifle designs - looking at you, SCAR - outright lack bayonet lugs).

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Oddly, looking it up, many sources seems to report the effect as a strength multiplier, based on the weight the user feels. Being an actual multiplier (such that a BL 20 person goes to BL 400, say, while a BL 39 person goes to BL 780) doesn't seem to make sense, but it should be noted the verbiage is something like "100 pounds feels like only five pounds for the suit’s user." The fact the user feels some weight, and the fact that this weight seems to scale with the weight of whatever is being lifted, implies that the user's muscles are contributing. This in turn leads to the "add BL" rather than "replace ST" interpretation. At the same time, many articles mention a specific weight the suit will lift. The above article mentions being able to safely lift up to 200 lb... but with the strength multiplier given (x20), one would expect a worker could safely lift more than that (as that would feel like 10 lb). That implies something more like the "replace ST" model. So, with a brief search online, it's... really hard to say.

I don't think there's been any real research into exoskeletons improving Striking ST. Only the military would have use for that, and the military isn't that interested in making melee striking better (note many modern rifle designs - looking at you, SCAR - outright lack bayonet lugs).

I think the point about safely lifting 200lb is the key thing. It's the max safe limit. A limit that is effected by what the suit can achieve in terms of transmitting force, and maybe also what load can safely be moved around without overbalancing the suit and wearer*. Although both limiting factors might not apply at the same rate of course!


The feels like 1/20th is subjective to the wearer but I don't think you can infer an increase to the total liftable weight due to different wearers who might be able to lift different weights on their own and thus what lifting 10lbs feels like to them differs.

or put it this way (and in GURPS terms)

Someone with BL20 (so ST10) might be able to lift 200lb with this suit and have it feel like lifting 10lbs, and that might feel like to them what lifting half their BL feels like.

And

Someone with BL40 (so ST14ish) might feel that 10lb lift in a different way as it would only be 1/4 of their BL.


But that difference in what 10lbs feels like to each of them wouldn't necessarily mean the ST14 wearer can get a better overall performance out of the machine just because 10lbs feels different to them. Just that when they lift 200lb with the suit it feels more comfortable "less heavy" than when the ST10 wearer does.

I agree one assumes that has to be some benefit from a stronger wearer but it might just be that a stronger wearer can shift 10lbs around all day and feels it differently than an inherently weaker wearer even if 10lbs is below both's unassisted max capacity. GURPS however doesn't really go into that.

One assumes that if a wearer was unable to lift 10lbs than that might act a limiting factor though!

There's another point, you don't want the suit to remove all effort from the wearer for heath and safety reason. It would be potentially dangerous for workers to be carrying around heavy & large loads without feeling something!



Of course, there's nothing say that this rig is how all such assisted lifting technology will go! If nothing else one has to assume that as soon as feedback technology gets more nimble the work done let off between wearer and suit should become adjustable (it's just it's probably going to still be subject to an overall limit).





A possibly relevant comparison in some ways here might be a stepped down compound bow.

say you have 120lb draw bow that's rated as a stepped down 30lb felt draw.

An archer than can draw a 120lb bow unassisted and an archer who can only draw a 30lb bow unassisted will both be able to draw this bow. But both will feel very different when doing so. The archer who can draw 120lb bows unassisted won't suddenly get extra out the compound bow either by either adding their difference or multiplying their step down advantage by that difference.



Of course some bows can adjust the mechanical advantage they give (IIRC) which will effect this relationship, but the actual draw of the bow and how it propels the arrow is still set by the actual bow.

Similarly if i can draw an unassisted 120lb bow I can't make a 30lb unassisted draw bow fire like a 120lb bow. But I will find it a lot easier and more comfortable to draw it than someone who can only just draw a 30lb bow!


(just to say I don't think thess kind of lifting frames and compound bows are exactly synonymous or anything, it just struck me as vaguely similar in concept in terms of felt load vs. total capability)





*You see this with cranes and forklifts that are improperly set, braced or attempting too much that end up lifting themselves or pulling themselves over to their loads. Because they're lighter or easier to move than the load they are attempting to move. You also see it when changing where the load is in relation to the lifter. Classic example forklift lifts the load initially from the ground but when trying to raise it to a certain height (to say stack it on something else), the balance point changes and they tip over, safety measures to prevent thus include having cut offs past a certain point. (lets just say if you work on building sites long enough you'll see cranes and forklifts doing all sorts of silly things out of boredom if nothing else!)
.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

*You see this with cranes and forklifts that are improperly set or attempting to much that that end up lifting themselves or pulling themselves over to ther loads.

It's possible this is part of what the article is referring to when it gives that 200 lb figure - while a person can readily lift more than 10 lb, it starts becoming dangerous if said 10 lb is actually a sizable fraction of the human's weight. Unfortunately, I can't find any numbers for how much the Guardian XO Max (or XO in general) weighs. Looking it up, the website for the creators, Sarcos Robotics, uses a bit different verbiage - it notes that it allows the wearer to "safely, comfortably and easily lift 200 lbs./90 Kg. repeatedly without exertion, strain or injury." There is, unfortunately, no real word I can find on what happens if you lift more than 200 lb, which is really what we need here.

Of course, this is also an early prototype - we're still in TL 8 after all - so how the current exoskeletons work doesn't necessarily dictate how the exoskeletons of your TL 9+ setting work. The tl;dr of it is, I think there are realistic reasons to go with both the fixed ST and +BL interpretations, and as the second is a bit more balanced in terms of game mechanics (as it means you still get at least some use out of ST, even when in a battlesuit), I prefer it over the former.

As for Striking ST, allowing suits to increase that probably isn't a bad option. The suits let you wield heavier weapons, and functionally make your arm and hand heavier, so a powersuit punch (for example) being stronger than a more mundanely-armored punch makes sense. Plus, GURPS' ST-based damage is already rather unrealistic anyway.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It's possible this is part of what the article is referring to when it gives that 200 lb figure - while a person can readily lift more than 10 lb, it starts becoming dangerous if said 10 lb is actually a sizable fraction of the human's weight. Unfortunately, I can't find any numbers for how much the Guardian XO Max (or XO in general) weighs. Looking it up, the website for the creators, Sarcos Robotics, uses a bit different verbiage - it notes that it allows the wearer to "safely, comfortably and easily lift 200 lbs./90 Kg. repeatedly without exertion, strain or injury." There is, unfortunately, no real word I can find on what happens if you lift more than 200 lb, which is really what we need here.

Yep

Originally Posted by Varyon

Of course, this is also an early prototype - we're still in TL 8 after all - so how the current exoskeletons work doesn't necessarily dictate how the exoskeletons of your TL 9+ setting work.

yep

Originally Posted by Varyon

The tl;dr of it is, I think there are realistic reasons to go with both the fixed ST and +BL interpretations, and as the second is a bit more balanced in terms of game mechanics (as it means you still get at least some use out of ST, even when in a battlesuit), I prefer it over the former.

As for Striking ST, allowing suits to increase that probably isn't a bad option. The suits let you wield heavier weapons, and functionally make your arm and hand heavier, so a powersuit punch (for example) being stronger than a more mundanely-armored punch makes sense. Plus, GURPS' ST-based damage is already rather unrealistic anyway.

Yep I agree, yeah OK working out punching force in real life is a complex interrelationship between mass, speed, relative position and end point, material, surface area of impact etc, etc.

But you can't tell me some oversized metal arm that can lift 100's of lbs and can move at anything like normal human speed isn't going to hurt a lot when it's wearer clocks you with it*!







*even if its not an exactly proportional increase in punching strength compared to that in lifting strength. Hell you want to give your SM+1 ST40 combat frame -4 striking ST it's not like it's going to make a lot of difference to the results of punching at that level anyway!

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Oddly, looking it up, many sources seems to report the effect as a strength multiplier, based on the weight the user feels. Being an actual multiplier (such that a BL 20 person goes to BL 400, say, while a BL 39 person goes to BL 780) doesn't seem to make sense, but it should be noted the verbiage is something like "100 pounds feels like only five pounds for the suit’s user."

Looking at their press release, it also says, "This results in offloading 100 percent of the weight the worker is bearing, as well as the weight of the suit itself."

I think the feeling of 5lbs is the haptic feedback-control system, with I'm guessing an arbitrary ratio set at 20 to 1. The user in the pic doesn't look like he'd be able to apply his own strength directly to the load, unless he takes his hands out of the controls.

So, as an exoskeleton, I think this is closer to how a mech would work rather than power armour. Personally, I'd say power armour would do all the lifting up to its designed ST, and then the user would be able to add their own ST to exceed what the armour can handle alone- essentially the add BLs idea, but in reverse, I guess.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

So, as an exoskeleton, I think this is closer to how a mech would work rather than power armour. Personally, I'd say power armour would do all the lifting up to its designed ST, and then the user would be able to add their own ST to exceed what the armour can handle alone- essentially the add BLs idea, but in reverse, I guess.

You would be competing with the (presumably much stronger) armor trying to "overlift" what it was already handling. Adding BL may be ascetically pleasing, but it's no more accurate than adding ST values.

It's likely that armor will provide feedback, but it will have its own fixed ST valued based on what its motors can handle. If you try to move where it doesn't want to go, you'll be contesting what ST it provides.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by naloth

It's likely that armor will provide feedback, but it will have its own fixed ST valued based on what its motors can handle. If you try to move where it doesn't want to go, you'll be contesting what ST it provides.

For hydraulics, sure, but what about higher TL myomers or something? i.e. We need a paradigm for how it works.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by naloth

You would be competing with the (presumably much stronger) armor trying to "overlift" what it was already handling. Adding BL may be ascetically pleasing, but it's no more accurate than adding ST values.

It's likely that armor will provide feedback, but it will have its own fixed ST valued based on what its motors can handle. If you try to move where it doesn't want to go, you'll be contesting what ST it provides.

For a simple example, consider something being lifted by a chain on a turning gear. When attempting to lift something close to or exceeding the weight it can lift, the gear is going to be turning slowly or not at all, because it's straining against the weight. If you then stand beneath the weight and try to push it up, what happens? It really shouldn't be any different than if there was a person on the other end of the chain trying to lift the weight, meaning you add your BL's together to try and lift the weight.

It should be possible for power armor to be designed such that it will continue to try to lift something too heavy for it if the user is also trying to lift it. For safety, you'll eventually want the suit to give up and "lock" if it can't lift the object (because a machine continuing to try to lift something it can't may produce internal strain and break something; note this can happen to people as well), but allowing it to be moved in the same direction it's trying to lift will permit the user to add his/her own strength to the attempt. Particularly strong suits might lack this, since the 20 or so lb of BL the user can contribute isn't worth the added complexity. Construction exoskeletons probably don't allow the user to add to the suit's strength, now that I think about it - one of the purposes of such is to prevent workers from being injured, and preventing them from overexerting themselves is a good way to do that. For military exoskeletons/powered armor, however, I can certainly see them wanting to allow the user to push the envelope when needed.

[Plane]

To keep it a static amount, maybe a battlesuit should count like another character who is helping you rather than a bonus to your own?

Like if you treated them as an ally with their own fixed ST but maybe that ST has "Controls"?