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Old 07-19-2019, 10:48 PM   #31
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Trying to codify Political Rank

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
The fact that A can give orders to B is not in any way definitive of Rank.

* The head of a household can give orders to its servants: Wimsey to Bunter, or Gomez Addams to Lurch, for example. But Gomez Addams doesn't have "Servant Rank." Even if you have a multiperson household staff within which some members give orders to others, culminating in a butler who runs things downstairs, the butler as the highest ranked servant takes orders from someone who's not a servant.
I've never heard of "Servant Rank". What you are describing there is Administrative Rank within a household, and Gomez should buy it if he is going to use it in play.

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* The CEO of a corporation can give orders to its employees; but this isn't normally defined as Corporate Rank
No, again, it's Administrative Rank in a corporate heirarchy and I can't imagine why you think a CEO wouldn't have it.

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A Mafia hit man takes orders from the head of his family, but GURPS doesn't have Mafia Rank.
Of course it does, if the Mafia organization is organized in a way that suits it.

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In the French civil service of the ancien régime, there were several ministers who obviously had high Administrative Rank—the ministers of the army, the navy, foreign affairs, the interior, and Protestant affairs. They all reported to the king and took orders from him. But the king wasn't a minister, or any kind of administrator; he was the personal embodiment of the state.

The terminology doesnt matter. If he is a character at the top of an administrative Rank heirarchy he should have Administrative Rank, like the president.
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I spent most of a page in Social Engineering spelling out all the different properties that go to make up the standard version of Rank.
I've seen it. Unfortunately I think you got it wrong.
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Old 07-19-2019, 11:26 PM   #32
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Default Re: Trying to codify Political Rank

For corporations, I wouldn't use Administrative, as that deals with government types, but a Merchant Rank or Corporate Rank. The modern Political Rank is outgrowth in many ways of Feudal Rank, but as I've stated before (in this thread and others), politics is messy. Trying to simplify things to a Political Rank can be an exercise in hair-pulling, particularly when you have separation of powers on multiple levels.

That said, using an Administrative Rank chart similar to those found in, for example, Traveller: Interstellar Wars can be a good starting point for figuring out an effective Political Rank. However, I still prefer a Political Empowerment advantage (based off the Clerical Empowerment advantage given to those in the clergy) combined with Status and maybe the Pulling Rank variation of Rank to give the Assistance Roll for those who can request aid from the org rather than having subordinates in it. As I understand it, a Congressman, Senator, or Member of Parliament can request aid from outside their immediate office while unable to treat those assisting as subordinates.



From past times this has come up, I think Bill's thinking that the Rank only comes from governments (including the canonical Merchant Rank, from corporatocracies and similar cultures where guilds run things openly). However, Social Engineering (which he wrote) counters this with various other Organizational Ranks including Organized Criminal Rank, when those organizations have nothing to do with governments. Using a Rank structure for any organization can be useful; you just have to remember to reprice Rank to represent the resources of the granting org as well as its influence outside the org.
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Old 07-20-2019, 12:59 PM   #33
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Default Re: Trying to codify Political Rank

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Originally Posted by Phantasm View Post
For corporations, I wouldn't use Administrative, as that deals with government types, but a Merchant Rank or Corporate Rank.
Depending on how a particular corporation (especially one with lots of subsidiaries) is organized, Feudal Rank may be more fitting. I mean, I hope that would be rare in RL, but I'd be willing to use it in a cyberpunk game.
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Old 07-20-2019, 02:14 PM   #34
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Default Re: Trying to codify Political Rank

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Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
Depending on how a particular corporation (especially one with lots of subsidiaries) is organized, Feudal Rank may be more fitting. I mean, I hope that would be rare in RL, but I'd be willing to use it in a cyberpunk game.
Cyberpunk games can be funky. :)

The way I figure it, the average person who works on the assembly line at a place like a GM, ZF Transmissions, Sterilite Plastics, or similar plant, at a call center as a customer service representative, or a fast food chain such as McDonald's would have Corporate Rank 0, their line/team/shift managers Corporate Rank 1, the department managers inside the building (or the franchise owner for fast food joints) Corporate Rank 2, and the Plant Manager Corporate Rank 3, rough guestimates. Above that is when you start figuring out how large the company really is with Regional Managers and whatnot and how the corporate politics plays out.

Tying this back into Political Rank, let's go with something small:

A County in Pennsylvania has a board of County Commissioners, with a Chairperson and Vice Chairperson; as well as a Controller (responsible for fiscal affairs), Coroner, District Attorney, Public Defender, Prothonotary (county court record-keeper), Recorder of Deeds and Register of Wills, Sheriff, a Treasurer, and an Emergency Services Manager separate from the Commissioners. Under the county level you have Boroughs and Townships (only one Town in the entire state); cities in Pennsylvania - with two exceptions - follow the borough model and fall under the county. (The two exceptions are Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, both of which fill the entire County of the same names and don't have a separate county government apart from the city). Boroughs have Mayors, and Townships have Supervisors; both have Committees for their legislative details, and the Mayors/Supervisors have no voting power on the Committee (unlike a Town where the Mayor has a vote on the Council/Committee).

How would you handle the Political Rank of the City Mayor? County Commission Chairperson? Township Supervisor? (I'd be more tempted to just give them Admin Rank with a 5-point Political Empowerment advantage, but that advantage is a house rule, not RAW.)
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Last edited by Phantasm; 07-17-2022 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 07-20-2019, 03:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Trying to codify Political Rank

I would agree with the Admin Rank solution. But I wonder what they would be getting in practical terms from the proposed Political Empowerment advantage.
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:11 PM   #36
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Default Re: Trying to codify Political Rank

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I would agree with the Admin Rank solution. But I wonder what they would be getting in practical terms from the proposed Political Empowerment advantage.
It basically gives you the powers invested in the political office you hold, whatever that office is. Those powers vary by position and presumably a written charter (US Constitution, State Constitution, City Charter, Township Charter, etc.) detailing what you can and cannot do by yourself or in a committee of peers. It also gives a +1 Reaction bonus from those in your jurisdiction, and permits you to use a title suitable for the position.

Basically, take Clerical Investment and shift it from religious powers/privileges to political.
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The GURPS Marvel Universe Reboot Project A-G, H-R, and S-Z, and its not-a-wiki-really web adaptation.
Ranoc, a Muskets-and-Magery Renaissance Fantasy Setting
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