Overconfidence vs Confidence

[Mark Skarr]

So, let me set the stage:

GURPS Star Wars Old Republic. We open the door, trying to find an engineering section on a derelict star ship. We have to go through this room to get to the entrance to the engineering section (because, as we discussed, Star Wars ships are not OSHA compliant). The room has a bunch of scavvs/survivors/psychos in it, as well as two rebuilt (assuming by the scavvs) security droids. Behind all of these, we can see a security room (force field intact) full of security droids that we know we will also have to deal with, but, for the moment, they’re keeping to themselves.

The party consists of Kat, the smuggler; Oddball, Kat’s ship’s engineer; Alan, an infiltrator; Verex, a Bounty Hunter; and Jouraali, a Jedi Padawan. Verex is fairly badly injured at this time (his left leg seems to be a magnet for blaster bolts). The rest of us are undamaged. Verex is also carrying a light repeating blaster he took off of a sub-boss in the previous ship.

After several turns of combat, Jouraali takes some damage as is at 30% HP, but still holding her own against several foes. Oddball has already opened a floor hatch causing the majority of enemies to plummet either to the deck below or into a bottomless pit (again, non-OSHA compliant). Verex gets his leg hit again (and taken to -2 HP). Kat shouts to retreat and Oddball (who is playing with controls in the room) turns off the gravity (on a very short delay) and everyone else runs. Jouraali tells them to not go, that they have this.

Now, at this time, there are three enemies and four (technically five) conscious PCs. Verex is seriously injured, but so is Jouraali. Jouraali is at 3 HP. Verex is at -2. Oddball took a single point from the engineering console she was at getting shot and exploding in her face. Alan and Kat are undamaged. (They were hiding in the holy doorway, which was getting holier by the moment from additional shots).

Jouraali knew she wouldn’t make it through the door before the gravity was turned off. She was well stuck in, deep in the room, and operating at half-move. Everyone else was over at the door. Jouraali didn’t try to escape. She stayed in the room, used the zero-g to her advantage, defeated the two remaining droids (the last remaining scavv defeated himself when he critically failed his blaster roll and his blaster exploded in his face, sending him pin-balling around the room). Jouraali is injured again during the fight against them, taking her to 0 HP, but she crits her first HT check and the GM lets her not have to make any more consciousness checks unless she takes more damage.

Jouraali TKs herself over to another console (she was using TK as a movement method to drift around the room), gently turns on the gravity and opens the door.

Jouraali: “The room is clear. I told you we had this.”
Verex: “We did not have this. You had this.”
Jouraali: “Now, someone give me a kolto tank.”

Now, the discussion became that, since Jouraali doesn’t have overconfidence, she should have retreated with the rest of the party. On several occasions, during the fight, when this was brought up, I pointed out, she wasn’t overconfident, just confident.

So, where, do you all think, that line lies? When is it confidence, when is it overconfidence?

[ericthered]

Just because you don't have a disadvantage doesn't mean you can't play like you do. Often the best character disadvantages are discovered in play.

If you read overconfidence, it does not say that you must always overextend. It simply says to make a control roll when showing "unreasonable caution".

[Harald387]

Disadvantages dictate behavior, both narratively and mechanically. Not having disadvantages doesn't - if you don't have a disadvantage that says otherwise, you're free to act however you like, even if that might be a moment of greed or overconfidence. The idea of constraining someone's behavior because they don't have a disadvantage is just plain weird.

[Mark Skarr]

The issue is that it wasn't overconfidence.

It was regular confidence.

I am confident I can drive to work, even in really bad weather, if I can get out of my driveway. I'm not overconfident, I have scads of experience driving in bad weather. I know how to do it. No one considers that overconfidence (unless you've never driven in a blizzard).

Jouraali knew that, as a party, they were well stronger than the remaining enemies. And, it turned out that, by herself, she was as well. She told them that, one way or another, they were going to have to clear that room, and she didn't like leaving a job half-done. If they would have all stayed, it would have been easier.

The character with overconfidence and the one with On the Edge ran, but the character with confidence in her abilities and an ally in The Force, stayed behind to win the day with calm, collected, well-applied violence.

[Varyon]

Her trying to get everyone to stay and fight was regular confidence. She was arguably a bit overconfident in opting to stay when everyone else left, but by that point trying to run away may have been harder than staying and fighting. Certainly, it would have been difficult in the moment to tell what the better option was (although someone with access to the Force may have had a better grip of the situation than someone without), and defaulting to fight rather than flight is hardly an invalid response.

Of course, absent relevant traits (Higher Purpose, Cowardice, Overconfidence, etc), only Jouraali's player can really say what her in-character response to the situation should be.

[Donny Brook]

You do not have to have a Disad in order to act as if you do.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

The character with overconfidence and the one with On the Edge ran, but the character with confidence in her abilities and an ally in The Force, stayed behind to win the day with calm, collected, well-applied violence.

And luck, don't forget the scav criting himself out of the fight instead of criting you out of the fight.

But I mostly agree with Varyon, with 4 versus three, your team likely had the capacity to finish with minimal additional causalities.

Of course we don't know know if Jouraali has combat stats and abilities far beyond those that fled, for instance if Jouraali has a Dodge of 14 and everyone else has 8's, I can understand everyone else desiring flight over fight. From the sounds of it you have 2 warriors and 3 non-combatants and Verex walked into the fight badly wounded and was then reduced further.


But then I'm not sure who you're trying to convince in this thread... us our your group.

[Boge]

Many times a player will act overconfident because they understand the rules of the game and the way a GM runs things. They know their character really isn't in any trouble even if their character doesn't know that and they don't role-play it properly, in my opinion. I find it incredibly annoying. But you can't really tell a player how they should play. They do what they think is fun.

I'm not saying anyone in your group played improperly. I'm just adding my two cents on Overconfidence in a character vs a player.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Now, the discussion became that, since Jouraali doesn’t have overconfidence, she should have retreated with the rest of the party.

First of all, I agree with the people who are noting that lack of a disad does not compel any particular course of action. That said, I'm not sure how I see it was overconfidence in the first place.

Character believed that they could win, and encouraged others to stay and fight. This was not clearly overconfidence; from the description of the situation, if the rest of the PCs hadn't run, winning was the most probable outcome. As it was, winning was lucky, but that doesn't play a role in the initial discussion.

Character was then abandoned by her allies. This not clearly overconfidence (it depends on the degree to which the character, after it became apparent that allies were leaving, had the opportunity to safely withdraw).

Character was unable to practically retreat and continued fighting. Again, continuing to fight when you don't have a choice is not overconfidence.

I would, however, have required self control rolls to retreat from PCs with Overconfidence, On the Edge, or other relevant disads (like Sense of Duty to Companions or a conflicting Code of Honor).

[Mark Skarr]

The question was 'where is that line?'

I'm not trying to convince anyone, just start a conversation about overconfidence vs confidence. No one in the group did anything wrong.

I wanted to see what others thought and where they would draw that line.

(Posting on a phone sucks)