Plate armor thicknesses

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Keampe

8-9mm? Which extant example is this?

Something proofed against muskets.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Keampe

8-9mm? Which extant example is this? Not even a breastplate with plastron is that thick - at least I haven't seen one. Could you be referring to some sort of jousting armor? Even then.....

I know at least a dozen that are 7mm thick or more. Here are six to start with.

Three of them are in the Museum of the Polish Army in Warsaw:
inv# 882x is 9mm
inv# 629x is 7mm
inv# 678x is 7mm

These two are in the Hofjagd und Rustkammmer in Vienna:
inv# A.1656 is 8.0mm
inv# A.1406 is 7.8mm

The Graz Armoury has one:
inv# cat.31 is 7.3mm

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Say, it isn't that bad!

Most probably, such an example would be around the 17th-century (1600s), when gunpowder and pike were the king of the battlefield, and a very heavy breastplate might protect you from a shot or three past fifty yards.

These will protect from any personal firearm shot at point blank. At longer ranges they could sometimes protect from cannon. There are multiple accounts of Hussars wearing these cuirasses getting hit by cannon fire and surviving.

Siege of Smolensk (1609-1611). Jan Wejher received a direct hit from a cannon ball shot from a Russian colubrine (a large cannon) on the rampart. He was saved by his cuirass, which was damaged but not penetrated. Wejher barely survived; when he recovered he donated his armour to the Carmelite Monastery in Loretto.

Aleksander Gosiewski was the voivode of Smolensk in 1633. He reported a man from his unit being hit by a cannon ball. The armour was dented but not penetrated. Unfortunately it skidded off the surface and continued through his arm, leaving it severely mangled.

During a battle between Liubar and Chudniv (1660) a hussar named Prusinowski, under field hetman Jerzy Lubomirski had his breastplate crushed by a cannon ball, denting but not penetrating it. There are three separate accounts saying that he was wounded but survived. One eyewitness (colonel Samuel Leszczyński) wrote that the dent was so large that he could put his hand in it.

[Varyon]

Hmmm... the most powerful "personal" firearm in LT is the musket (which is a beast of a weapon), at 4d+2 pi++. That's an average of 16 damage, so DR 16+ is sufficient to be proofed against it (in GURPS terms). A 7mm breastplate could nearly get away with being made of mild steel (you need DR 58/inch); good iron or better will certainly do the trick (good iron gets you nearly DR 19 at that thickness). Of course, GURPS armor roughly uses average thickness of a piece of armor; DR 16 strong steel would be around 0.23" (5.8mm) thick on average, and the idea it's 7mm at its thickest point doesn't strike me as outlandish. Note DR 16 is a bit thicker than the article will let you get away with for armor (it typically stops you at 0.2"); personally, I feel allowing the Chest and Skull to have a higher maximum thickness (I previously thought x2, but am leaning toward x1.5 currently) should be workable, and I assume those thick breastplates Dan is referring to would be Chest armor in GURPS LT terms.

[DanHoward]

They were not made of mild steel. Most proofed armors in the 17th century were a duplex construction.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

They were not made of mild steel. Most proofed armors in the 17th century were a duplex construction.

Oh, certainly. I included mild steel stats in case some of the reproduction armor OP was referencing were made of the stuff. I know you're not a huge fan of the Pyramid design articles, but do you think it would be alright to build duplex plate as essentially a plate of Hard Steel on top of one of Good Steel? Were the two plates that were combined typically of equal thickness, or did one tend to be thicker than the other?

[Keampe]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I know at least a dozen that are 7mm thick or more. Here are six to start with.

Three of them are in the Museum of the Polish Army in Warsaw:
inv# 882x is 9mm
inv# 629x is 7mm
inv# 678x is 7mm

These two are in the Hofjagd und Rustkammmer in Vienna:
inv# A.1656 is 8.0mm
inv# A.1406 is 7.8mm

The Graz Armoury has one:
inv# cat.31 is 7.3mm

Ahh, ok, I see. You're including musket-proofed armour, charitably coming in at the end of TL4 (thus in Low Tech) but more likely early TL5. The OP was specifically asking about Light Plate, Medium Plate and Heavy Plate and these are Medieval or earlier, not 1600's musket proofed armours.

But yes, duplex plated later armours could be that thick, easily. I also appreciate someone on the internet that cited examples in museums instead of Wikipedia - very refreshing and thank you for that. :)

- Shane

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Oh, certainly. I included mild steel stats in case some of the reproduction armor OP was referencing were made of the stuff. I know you're not a huge fan of the Pyramid design articles, but do you think it would be alright to build duplex plate as essentially a plate of Hard Steel on top of one of Good Steel?

Duplex plate is basically compound armor, which is a lower-tech method of doing face-hardening. However, even the best low tech armor isn't going to be equivalent to TL 6 steel because of alloying.

[Say, it isn't that bad!]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

These will protect from any personal firearm shot at point blank. At longer ranges they could sometimes protect from cannon. There are multiple accounts of Hussars wearing these cuirasses getting hit by cannon fire and surviving.

Siege of Smolensk (1609-1611). Jan Wejher received a direct hit from a cannon ball shot from a Russian colubrine (a large cannon) on the rampart. He was saved by his cuirass, which was damaged but not penetrated. Wejher barely survived; when he recovered he donated his armour to the Carmelite Monastery in Loretto.

Aleksander Gosiewski was the voivode of Smolensk in 1633. He reported a man from his unit being hit by a cannon ball. The armour was dented but not penetrated. Unfortunately it skidded off the surface and continued through his arm, leaving it severely mangled.

During a battle between Liubar and Chudniv (1660) a hussar named Prusinowski, under field hetman Jerzy Lubomirski had his breastplate crushed by a cannon ball, denting but not penetrating it. There are three separate accounts saying that he was wounded but survived. One eyewitness (colonel Samuel Leszczyński) wrote that the dent was so large that he could put his hand in it.

I'm saving this post, because before I read it, I would have called the idea of someone surviving a cannon ball to the torso, ridiculous.

Evidently, it is not.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Keampe

Ahh, ok, I see. You're including musket-proofed armour

Why would anyone make armour this thick otherwise?