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Old 01-23-2017, 08:55 PM   #1
Stripe
 
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Default [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

Rules as written and canonically speaking—and I think I've had this answer before but forgotten—what do the rules state in regard to knockback after a character's shield is struck?

For example, does an elf suffer knockback if a ST 30 troll hits his shield with a maul?

I understand that in DF, there is no knockback to a character who successfully blocked, but this question isn't specific to DF.

Seeking rules quotes with page references.

Thanks!
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

B484, Damage to Shields. (Optional rule)

"If your shield’s DB makes the difference between success and fail-
ure on any active defense (not just a block), the blow struck the shield
squarely, and may damage it.

Apply the attack’s damage to the shield. Subtract the shield’s DR. If no
damage penetrates the shield, there is no effect . . . but you experience full
knockback!"
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:43 PM   #3
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

There's the rules! Thanks!
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:41 AM   #4
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

As this came up in my last session, where does the retreat bonus come in here? Let's say I've got Block 9, a large shield and retreat. I ruled it as:

3-9: (Raw block) Evaded or deflected without undue contact.
10-11: (Shield) Potential damage to shield
12: (Retreat) Barely missed.
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:32 AM   #5
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhd View Post
As this came up in my last session, where does the retreat bonus come in here? Let's say I've got Block 9, a large shield and retreat. I ruled it as:

3-9: (Raw block) Evaded or deflected without undue contact.
10-11: (Shield) Potential damage to shield
12: (Retreat) Barely missed.
Apply DB last to determine if it's all that made the difference. If you used Retreat and rolled a 10, the Retreat made the difference in not being hit, not your DB.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhd View Post
As this came up in my last session, where does the retreat bonus come in here? Let's say I've got Block 9, a large shield and retreat. I ruled it as:

3-9: (Raw block) Evaded or deflected without undue contact.
10-11: (Shield) Potential damage to shield
12: (Retreat) Barely missed.
What mechanic is in place for a "Barely missed" ?
If it's just for flavour (as I don't recall any special effect happening if you make your dodge by the Retreat bonus, but I've been known to forget rules), then I would apply the Shield's DB after the Retreat, so 11-12 would damage the shield.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:18 AM   #7
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leynok View Post
What mechanic is in place for a "Barely missed" ?
If it's just for flavour (as I don't recall any special effect happening if you make your dodge by the Retreat bonus, but I've been known to forget rules), then I would apply the Shield's DB after the Retreat, so 11-12 would damage the shield.
Just descriptive text for the retreat saving the day, actually might make contact with the shield still.

Any RAW and/or logical reason for the order? My line of thinking was that for a block, it always uses the shield, so the retreat is technically the "last add-on". Not too passionate about that, though ;)
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:37 AM   #8
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhd View Post
Any RAW and/or logical reason for the order? My line of thinking was that for a block, it always uses the shield, so the retreat is technically the "last add-on". Not too passionate about that, though ;)
Probably just ease of figuring out when the shield gets hit. It's easy enough to figure everything out on the player's side and then just notice when the MoS is by the Shield's DB.


That's how I have my Players do it anyway.
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:56 AM   #9
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

Just to throw in my two cents, without any confidence that my view is better, I do it like mhd: I say that the lowest numbers in the "block" score represent skill, which is always present; the next numbers are the DB, which is an add-on (due to the shield) but is always there in some form (since hey, you're blocking, so you must have a shield); and the last number is the retreat bonus (which comes and goes pretty freely depending on the situation).

Somehow it just makes sense to me to add the retreat bonus last, since it's the one that applies least consistently. I think somehow my mind thinks about the block score as a physical pile of numbers, and then assumes that the retreat bonus ought be to on top so as to remain accessible, since it gets added and then taken away again so often....

Clearly there's no necessity for this; it's just what makes sense to me.
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Last edited by Joe; 01-24-2017 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: [RAW] Knockback Against Shields?

I always apply the shield DB last. It's the only thing that has an effect other than "It doesn't hit you.", so it should be the defense of last resort. Otherwise you'll have situations where your DB 3 shield gets hit, takes a lot of damage, and blows through to your torso when a DB 0 shield would have avoided the attack completely. That doesn't pass the sanity check for me.
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