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Old 11-12-2019, 06:35 AM   #51
hal
 
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Remember, that is GURPS $. The vast majority of rookie police officers in the USA make much more in 2019 $.

Equipment budgets are an important line item, which will probably be one of the reasons why the primary weapon may become DE weapons like Electrolaser Pistols. While they have a high upfront costs, they have practically no ammunition cost, which allows police officers to go to the gun range every week for a couple of hours without breaking the bank. It is possible for a police officer to go through 1000 bullets during a two-hour firing session, including the time for reloads and breaks, which would be $280 in 10mm ammunition a week. After just six weeks, the Electrolaser Pistol would be cheaper than the 10mm Heavy Pistol.

Of course, some departments might instead go for a Tangler Pistol instead. While the range is worse, the 25mm ammunition offers a lot of versatility. It can fire shapecharged rounds as well as tangler rounds, giving police the ability to take down vehicles or capture suspects with the same weapon. At $2.4 per round though, practicing is expensive even with standard ammunition, so it is better to practice just enough for familiarity and just practice with normal pistols.
The police departments may even simply practice with "dummy" rounds instead of live rounds. The officer at the range may even utilize HUD displays to show that the point of aim vs the point of impact would result in a successful tangler "on target" shot, or one that would be relatively ineffectual. They will find ways to cut expenses if they have sufficient incentive.

The question that goes through my mind based on your comments is:

What specifically is the purpose of a gun in the hands of a police officer? Is it intended to be capable of offering lethal force if necessary? Is it intended to be able to intimidate? Is it a weapon that is intended to potentially stop someone in their tracks (relatively speaking) so as to not continue on a deadly intent? Would a non-lethal police force be capable of dealing with terrorists? Would they be able to deal with a rabid creature? I just don't know...
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:52 AM   #52
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
Until block gangs start jamming comms anytime a patrol car enters their turf.

Also, such turf is probably heavily decorated with high poles, wires and nets to catch passing surveillance drones.
This looks to me like a civil war for control of gang areas rather than any policing situation except possibly in the way Korea was a "police action".

It would expain why police are wearing military armor but it's drifted pretty far from the generic title of this thread. Perhaps "Urban Military Tactics of TL9".
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:37 AM   #53
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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This looks to me like a civil war for control of gang areas rather than any policing situation except possibly in the way Korea was a "police action".
Oh, it won't look coordinated. It the result of generally hostile attitudes. And it was the first thing I thought when someone suggested sticking the AI back at the station: series crooks start jamming police cars. You can even stick a kid running the machine and he can say he's just doing it for a laugh.

Gang areas happen, and they happen in all sorts of places and governments. The systematic destruction of remote surveillance sounds like a natural consequence of that. I can even see the mayor of the city ordering the police to take down all the nets and poles, and it happens without all that much fuss... its just that they get put back within a month.

In a cyberpunk setting, these areas should be well known to the PC's (part of the streetwise skill), and their locations are going to be an important part of the game. Just don't stick any obvious crime targets close to them.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:43 AM   #54
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

As an aside... If the police have airborne drones following their vehicles...

Do the drones have lights and sirens to augment what is on the cruiser? So when the cruiser flips on the lights and siren, two of the drones fly about 10 feet above the roof with bright flashing red-and-blue lights. It seems like something that would make spotting them in traffic much easier. And it would be a really cool visual.
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Old 11-12-2019, 10:56 AM   #55
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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So when the cruiser flips on the lights and siren...
Speaking of flashing lights, with the advent of flexible film displays, I imagine that lightbars or beacons would be replaced by the whole body of the patrol car strobing in blue and red. It could also have scrolling text displays saying "Pull over" or "In pursuit."

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This looks to me like a civil war for control of gang areas rather than any policing situation except possibly in the way Korea was a "police action".
I was thinking of The Wire, Training Day, or any number of movies showing gang territories as being somewhere police don't go lightly.
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Old 11-12-2019, 12:00 PM   #56
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
What specifically is the purpose of a gun in the hands of a police officer? Is it intended to be capable of offering lethal force if necessary? Is it intended to be able to intimidate? Is it a weapon that is intended to potentially stop someone in their tracks (relatively speaking) so as to not continue on a deadly intent? Would a non-lethal police force be capable of dealing with terrorists? Would they be able to deal with a rabid creature? I just don't know...
The purpose will depend heavily on the setting you want, but I'd say it's there primarily to protect the officer. Part of this is the knowledge that attempting to attack a police officer may well end up with you dead, but I think that's a relatively small part of it (assaulting a police officer has some serious repercussions anyway, regardless of if you survive the attempt). With a good police force, protecting the officer from bodily harm empowers him/her to protect civilians. With an oppressive one, protecting the officer from bodily harm empowers him/her to keep the civilians in line. It is indeed also good at stopping someone from harming others, even if the officer's intervention wouldn't likely cause harm to himself/herself.

A nonlethal officer can manage most of the above just fine, so long as the weapon is as good at stopping people as a modern officer's pistol. Indeed, the electrolaser is arguably better than a pistol at stopping an unarmored person - it's more accurate (Acc 4 rather than ~Acc 2) and does an immediate stop roughly comparable to a shot to the Vitals (HT-4 stunning, as opposed to HT-5 stunning for a Vitals Major Wound); range leaves something to be desired, but I don't think there are many officer-involved shootings that are anywhere near 40 yards (the 1/2D range of the pistol electrolaser). Attacking an officer would not be as dangerous for the offender, but the boost a nonlethal force would likely have in terms of public relations may negate this drawback.

More dedicated criminals, which can include terrorists, may wear armor specifically designed to counter electrolasers, if this is all the officers are armed with. A metal-wire mesh of some sort can probably short out the circuit before the target's body is involved, preventing any stunning. This can lead to a situation similar to the North Hollywood shootout, where officers are unable to stop heavily-armored criminals. Note such can occur even with a lethal police force - indeed, the example was with such a police force, they simply lacked weapons that had sufficient penetration to deal with armor. Additional weapons - either issued to a specific group (like SWAT) or perhaps kept in the squad car - would be necessary. Incapacitating gas of some sort could work, but a) this could have less-than-ideal consequences for civilians in the area (fatal allergies, accidents while succumbing to the effects, etc) and b) criminals well-prepared enough to negate your electrolasers are probably well-prepared enough to negate riot/sleep gas. A tiny calibre, highly-armor-penetrating projectile laced with a contact sleep poison* would be ideal, but by its very nature as armor-piercing would endanger civilians. Tangler rounds - probably delivered by the shotgun-like 25mm tangler, stored in the squad car - are probably the best bet so long as the foe isn't in powered armor (and if they are, call in SWAT or the National Guard - beat cops don't deal with tanks!). However, dedicated enemies may still be able to shoot at you or civilians, so once you've rooted them in place you'll need to act fast to disarm them. Really dedicated enemies might have covered themselves in anti-tangler solution, or have some handy they can activate to escape, in which case it is likely the officer's role to keep civilians safe and the criminal(s) busy while SWAT gets into position. If you do opt to arm your officers with armor-piercing sleep darts, hitting the target with a tangler round first then sleep-darting them before they can get away can minimize the risks of civilians getting harmed (or your shooter accidentally hitting the brain).

Dangerous animals may be problematic. Electrolasers and tanglers will deal just fine with most (although for some animals you may need to crank the electrolaser up to lethal), but an escaped rhino or elephant is probably going to mostly disregard such (although by RAW GURPS rules I think they'd be affected normally by electrolasers). I'm pretty certain modern police forces have issues in such situations, however, so that's not really anything new.

*A Reflex Tacsuit with a clamshell and helmet of some flavor (doesn't matter, you'll be aiming at the limbs) is probably the worst you'd be likely to deal with, but there's the off chance of someone with a Combat Hardsuit. So, we're looking for something pi- (really, something like pi----, but GURPS doesn't go beyond pi-, which has pi-- performance, but I digress) that can get past DR 20 (tacsuit) or DR 30 (hardsuit limbs). Looking through UT, a gas-powered needle rifle firing APEP could penetrate the tacsuit well enough to deliver the contact poison, while the PDW firing APEP could penetrate the hardsuit's limbs. That in mind, a pistol should be able to manage - integrating UT and HT, any 2d+2 pistol from that latter (most 9mm, as well as the FN Five-seveN) should work against the hardsuit with APEP +P ammo, so at TL 9 getting at least a bit of damage past the armor should be doable. Sadly, by that time the Metal Gear Solid series will be far too out of date for people to reference while using sleep bullets.
Note for the less peacefully minded, replacing the contact sleep poison with contact lethal nerve poison is an option. Due to that taking a long time (in combat) to have an impact, combining the two may be needed (or just come up with a poison that does both - in the webcomic Genocide Man, the Genocide Project makes heavy use of GM neurotoxin, an enhanced version of sarin/cyclosarin that causes total body paralysis in seconds, with death by suffocation following).
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:15 PM   #57
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

One possibility as an alternative to the electrolaser pistol is the naseautor pistol. While it has less range, it is more accurate and functions as a cone hearing attack.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:37 PM   #58
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
One possibility as an alternative to the electrolaser pistol is the naseautor pistol. While it has less range, it is more accurate and functions as a cone hearing attack.
Publicly humiliating people by making them vomit and defecate themselves probably isn't going to help a police force's image any. Those who are less affected than that are in fairly serious pain (enough for -2 to most rolls) and have difficulty hearing, but are otherwise free to continue whatever actions prompted the use of the nauseators. I'd be much more inclined to associate such weapons with an oppressive regime than electrolasers, but you are correct that they are an option.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:54 PM   #59
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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Which is more important - having more bodies on the street with minimal equipment, or having fewer bodies on the street and better equipment (the cost of equipment cutting into the overall budget that provides for wages).
I feel like the body count is the biggest issue. However, some equipment lets you get the body to more places. The officer's car is a big example of this, and it makes me really curious about drones. On the one hand, their expensive, and may take bodies off of the street and into the station. On the other, they could let a policeman effectively be in multiple places at once.

I just wonder how effective a policeman using a drone remotely can be at his job. Also, downing a police drone feels like a much lesser offense than shooting a cop.

Now I've got this image of a hovering drone trying to break up a case of domestic violence because the neighbors heard screams. I can't decide if its going to work or not. I can't imagine onery drunks responding that well to the remote authority of a drone either. And they might be stopped by simple things like doors.
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Old 11-12-2019, 01:55 PM   #60
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Default Re: Sci-Fi Police of the year 2049 AD

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
One possibility as an alternative to the electrolaser pistol is the naseautor pistol. While it has less range, it is more accurate and functions as a cone hearing attack.
statistically speaking:

If the average HT is 10 in a general population, HT-3 saving rolls up to 9 yards (for pistols), will result in the following:

26% of those who are hit by the beam will suffer permanent nerve damage
16% will generally be unaffected, and the remainder will suffer pain and temporary loss of hearing.

Somehow, I get the feeling that these weapons will not see much use in First World nations largely because of the issues stemming from permanent nerve damage. Much of human social interaction is via voice communication. Indiscriminant use of these devices will create a backlash in one way or another.

A government that rules through oppression is not going to be deterred by this, and may very well use it to strike fear in its population. Would such use be treated as a human rights violation - deliberate mutilation of people's hearing? That would largely depend on the GM who runs it this way.

I find it ironic that sonic weapons are treated as superscience, but Nauseator weapons (which are sonic based) are not. Equally interesting - sound is a wave based event. It tends to bounce off of hard surfaces - which makes me wonder why DR is not effective against the weapon's attack mode. A helmet should provide some protection, as should ear plugs used by shooting enthusiasts.

I'm curious? How many GM's have used this in their campaigns? I know I haven't, but it would be interesting to see if anyone has.
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