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Old 03-14-2019, 10:38 AM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default "you stumble"

I was reading http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=112922 and it highlights one of the unarmed critical miss results:
You stumble. On an attack, you advance one yard past your opponent and end your turn facing away from him; he is now behind you!

Imagine this scenario:
*you have Basic Move of 5
*you are 6 yards away from your opponent
*you take a "Move and Attack" maneuver
*you move 5 yards toward him, and are in range to either (reach 1) kick him or make a flying tackle (or pounce, if 4-legged) at him
*you critically fail and get that result, and so end up 1 yard behind him, having effectively advanced 2 extra yards further (7 total) than you could by having taken a non-attacking normal Move maneuver

Can you intentionally choose in advance to critically miss to (either possibly or guaranteed) gain an extra step or 2?

If it's possible to do that by stumbling on accident, then shouldn't it be possible to do that on purpose? Just say "I'm taking a Move and Attack, but I'm taking an automatic failure in exchange for choosing HOW it is I fail" Then you are basically getting the extra movement in exchange for the reduced defenses that a Move and Attack gives?

It also seems like the "you stumble" result counts like a successful evasion past an opponent who might not want you to get past them. In that case, since you're not actively trying to get past them, should they even need to roll to stop you, or just automatically succeed? If they should roll, what against?
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:43 AM   #2
David Johnston2
 
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Default Re: "you stumble"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I was reading http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=112922 and it highlights one of the unarmed critical miss results:
You stumble. On an attack, you advance one yard past your opponent and end your turn facing away from him; he is now behind you!

Imagine this scenario:
*you have Basic Move of 5
*you are 6 yards away from your opponent
*you take a "Move and Attack" maneuver
*you move 5 yards toward him, and are in range to either (reach 1) kick him or make a flying tackle (or pounce, if 4-legged) at him
*you critically fail and get that result, and so end up 1 yard behind him, having effectively advanced 2 extra yards further (7 total) than you could by having taken a non-attacking normal Move maneuver

Can you intentionally choose in advance to critically miss to (either possibly or guaranteed) gain an extra step or 2?

If it's possible to do that by stumbling on accident, then shouldn't it be possible to do that on purpose? Just say "I'm taking a Move and Attack, but I'm taking an automatic failure in exchange for choosing HOW it is I fail" Then you are basically getting the extra movement in exchange for the reduced defenses that a Move and Attack gives?

It also seems like the "you stumble" result counts like a successful evasion past an opponent who might not want you to get past them. In that case, since you're not actively trying to get past them, should they even need to roll to stop you, or just automatically succeed? If they should roll, what against?
No. You can't fumble on purpose. And I'd say the "extra yard of movement" should be subtracted from your movement allowance on your next turn anyway.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:54 AM   #3
Plane
 
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Default Re: "you stumble"

That sounds like a reasonable idea. Of course, being able to get the extra movement sooner than later could still be to your benefit, and you might be forced to do something next turn (get stunned: Do Nothing, or be grappled and be unable to step) which prevents you from moving anyway, in which case you didn't lose anything.

Being able to pick and choose ANY of the results would be strange, since it would allow people to casually knock themselves out (B557 results 3 and 18).

However, it seems like you might be able to tactically (by choosing to reduce your attack skill to 3, the minimum required to roll at all) try to optimize your chances of getting to roll on the table (crit fails on 13-18) and possibly getting the extra step result.

Making your opponent more able to get a critical success on an active defense (such as making a telegraphic attack) is another option which could change your attack roll into a critical failure.

The 9/10/11 "lose your balance" result is more likely, or falling down (8) or tripping (12) or dropping guard (13) but right after that, a 7 or a 14 can get the stumbling result as the next most likely possibility.

Could we design a technique where in exchange for a penalty, you gain the benefit of, if it crit-failed, being able to shift a critical miss result 1 point in a desired direction post-roll?
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Old 03-14-2019, 11:01 AM   #4
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: "you stumble"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
That sounds like a reasonable idea. Of course, being able to get the extra movement sooner than later could still be to your benefit, and you might be forced to do something next turn (get stunned: Do Nothing, or be grappled and be unable to step) which prevents you from moving anyway, in which case you didn't lose anything.

Being able to pick and choose ANY of the results would be strange, since it would allow people to casually knock themselves out (B557 results 3 and 18).

However, it seems like you might be able to tactically (by choosing to reduce your attack skill to 3, the minimum required to roll at all) try to optimize your chances of getting to roll on the table (crit fails on 13-18) and possibly getting the extra step result.

Making your opponent more able to get a critical success on an active defense (such as making a telegraphic attack) is another option which could change your attack roll into a critical failure.

The 9/10/11 "lose your balance" result is more likely, or falling down (8) or tripping (12) or dropping guard (13) but right after that, a 7 or a 14 can get the stumbling result as the next most likely possibility.

Could we design a technique where in exchange for a penalty, you gain the benefit of, if it crit-failed, being able to shift a critical miss result 1 point in a desired direction post-roll?
Super luck (aspected : only to critically miss on a Move and Attack)
and
Super luck (aspected : only for roll on critical miss table after a crit fail on on a Move and Attack)

I will let your GM decide on the limitation percentage.
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Old 03-14-2019, 04:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: "you stumble"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celjabba View Post
Super luck (aspected : only to critically miss on a Move and Attack)
and
Super luck (aspected : only for roll on critical miss table after a crit fail on on a Move and Attack)

I will let your GM decide on the limitation percentage.
Woof. Even going for the max, I don't think it's worth it.

Also, why are you going for Super Luck when the effect is "2 extra yards of Move"? Go with this:

Slippery Attack [8]
Move +2 (Only after "failed attack", -80%)
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Old 03-14-2019, 05:03 PM   #6
Celjabba
 
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Default Re: "you stumble"

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
Woof. Even going for the max, I don't think it's worth it.

Also, why are you going for Super Luck when the effect is "2 extra yards of Move"? Go with this:

Slippery Attack [8]
Move +2 (Only after "failed attack", -80%)
That's certainly cheaper and easier, and work every time and not once per hour.
But it doesn't get you the automatic evade.
Which, I agree, is probably not worth 32 cp on its own.

But if you want to (ab)use critical failure, I have no problem setting the price sky-high :)

Last edited by Celjabba; 03-15-2019 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 03-14-2019, 10:47 PM   #7
Gef
 
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Default Re: "you stumble"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
*you critically fail and get that result, and so end up 1 yard behind him, having effectively advanced 2 extra yards further (7 total) than you could by having taken a non-attacking normal Move maneuver

Can you intentionally choose in advance to critically miss to (either possibly or guaranteed) gain an extra step or 2?
Sort of. Check out Martial Arts, p. 107, the "Flying Attack" option under Move and Attack. Basically, you run your full distance, then jump. In a non-cinematic campaign, you get half your out-of-combat running jump distance, which is equal to your out-of-combat standing jump distance, which is (2×MV-3)/3 yards, or 2 yards for MV 5.
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Old 03-15-2019, 12:51 AM   #8
tbone
 
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Default Re: "you stumble"

Another easy way to rule it:

If you have enough remaining Move points to stumble past your opponent, per the text, then you do.

If you don't have the remaining Move points to do so, you just stumble and get turned around within your current hex.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: "you stumble"

Or, if you don't have remaining Move, you stumble on your next turn and need the rest of that turn to stabilize yourself.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:22 AM   #10
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Default Re: "you stumble"

I would be tempted to just say a stumble critical result on a Move and Attack is a fall instead. When people start to look at critical failure tables as a source of special abilities...

Make a flying tackle aimed at the universe, critical failure, result #5 on the unarmed critical miss table = teleportation to alternate universe.
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