GURPS On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society

[sn0wball]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Controllable Disadvantage: Callous Perk

A very important observation: the disadvantage Callous (-6) is not the same as the advantage Immunity (PTSD). Disadvantages should not confer any advantages to a character. If a given campaign enforces strict rules on gaining (further) mental disorders through extreme stress, possessing a disadvantage should not make you exempt from these rules.

Being a Sadist, a Callous bastard, a Murder Addict does not automatically make you at ease with your mental state and whatever you do under those conditions. Even if you are already mentally deranged, extreme stress will simply derange you further. This is true in real life and has to be conceptually true under GURPS rules. Of course, if a given murder addict kills for the Nth time, this might not count as stress for him, but that is not because of his disadvantage, but because of his routine, without regard for a disadvantge.

Such a positive side effect from a disadvantage should at least be a perk level advantage, if not more, depending on how strict rules for PTSD are applied.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Witchking

True but the OP was postulating that NORMAL people (ie no particular disads <positive Reluctant KIller, SOD Humanity or negative Sadist, Callous>) should be effected by such a happenstance.

I agree with the sentiment but do not think that there needs to be a rule for it. That is the realm of the player, it is up to them to decide how it effects them.

Again IMHO and YMMV.

I guess one thing that should probably be emphasized is that a GURPS 0-point character, with no ads, disads, skills, perks, and all stats at 10...is FAR from a normal character. He or she is utterly unencumbered by normal restraints on behavior or attitude imposed by culture and upbringing.

"Normal" people in GURPS, as opposed to "zero point characters with no ads or disads" (or forget zero points...just no cultural/social ads or disads) are likely burdened with several quirk or 5-point level disadvantages or advantages that constrain your behavior based on the norm for your culture. In modern society, some degree of "Reluctant Killer" is almost certainly true, and depending on your view of humans in general, it might be appropriate, as Icelander seems to, to hit ALL normal people with somewhere between 1 and 5 points of this type of thing, just to represent that "normal" people run AWAY from gunfire, take cover, don't automatically escalate every conversation into a fistfight or duel, or other happy observations about the behavior of PCs in RPGs. :-)

dhc

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sn0wball

... Disadvantages should not confer any advantages to a character.

I've always taken "Disadvantage" to mean "imposes constraints on your PCs behavior that would otherwise not be present." This could have some beneficial side effects...the important thing being the constraint on free choice of options.

YMMV, of course, and everyone plays their own game, but that's been my take on what makes a disad.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by sn0wball

Disadvantages should not confer any advantages to a character.

Callous already does; it gives +1 to Interrogation and Intimidation rolls when using threats or torture.

Originally Posted by sn0wball

A very important observation: the disadvantage Callous (-6) is not the same as the advantage Immunity (PTSD).

Callous is [-5].

Callous would include Immunity (PTSD from bad things happening or nearly happening to other people). That doesn't cover all the ground that Immunity (PTSD) would.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Callous would include Immunity (PTSD from bad things happening or nearly happening to other people). That doesn't cover all the ground that Immunity (PTSD) would.

'Whoa, a body ripped in half by zombies. Next time it could be me. *shudder*'

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I guess one thing that should probably be emphasized is that a GURPS 0-point character, with no ads, disads, skills, perks, and all stats at 10...is FAR from a normal character. He or she is utterly unencumbered by normal restraints on behavior or attitude imposed by culture and upbringing.

The Man without Disadvantages thread... Fun and frustrating at the same time :)

[Engurrand]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Callous would include Immunity (PTSD from bad things happening or nearly happening to other people). That doesn't cover all the ground that Immunity (PTSD) would.

Not caring about other people's feelings, and the endorphin based physiological reaction to violence and trauma are two very different things, IMHO.

Callous might be useful for a black-ops interrogator, but our officers generally prefer their GIs DON'T have callous. I honestly don't think it has much bearing on PTSD. Again IMHO.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

'Whoa, a body ripped in half by zombies. Next time it could be me. *shudder*'

Fair point. I meant that someone with callous wouldn't suffer from having blown the head of a 5 year old.

[Engurrand]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Fair point. I meant that someone with callous wouldn't suffer from having blown the head of a 5 year old.

I would say, they wouldn't think twice about doing it. "5 year old? What's the difference?" But I think they would still suffer consequences from the experience of the blood, recoil, retort, screaming etc that resulted.
Even people who don't care about others at all (selfish and callous) can still have their cages rattled by the near experience of death. The consequences might be a little different, but they would still be shaken.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Engurrand

Not caring about other people's feelings, and the endorphin based physiological reaction to violence and trauma are two very different things, IMHO.

I honestly don't think it has much bearing on PTSD. Again IMHO.

Originally Posted by Engurrand

But I think they would still suffer consequences from the experience of the blood, recoil, retort, screaming etc that resulted.
Even people who don't care about others at all (selfish and callous) can still have their cages rattled by the near experience of death. The consequences might be a little different, but they would still be shaken.

During one of the old threads on decapitation, I read up on executioners, for some of them (the successful ones anyway) taking a human life seems to be no more troubling than killing bacteria is for a normal person. Here's one quote that I found interesting:

Originally Posted by Muhammad Saad al-Beshi

"The criminal was tied and blindfolded. With one stroke of the sword I severed his head. It rolled metres away." Of course he was nervous, he says - there were a lot of people watching, after all - but now stage fright is a thing of the past.

Originally Posted by Muhammad Saad al-Beshi

Al-Beshi began his career at a prison in Taif, where his job was to handcuff and blindfold the prisoners before their execution. "Because of this background, I developed a desire to be an executioner,"

This guy deliberately chose this. He knew what was involved and wanted it.

Originally Posted by Engurrand

Callous might be useful for a black-ops interrogator, but our officers generally prefer their GIs DON'T have callous.

How is the relevant? War is a team sport, and people with callous never take one for the team, because they aren't team players.