making it so large powerstones don't stop small ones from recharging

[Plane]

Originally Posted by maximara

Exactly and the way Powerstone Recharge Rack in Magic Items 1 pg 65-66 goes out of its way to state it will not work in regions below Normal mana implies that Powerstone would normally recharge in low mana age even if at Power 15 - otherwise why go out of your way to mention that?

I think the intent might be to express a limitation to how powerstones normally function.

IE even if the Recharging Rack had a Power of 30, it still won't work in Low Mana.

Originally Posted by maximara

I was referring to the spell cast from the item not the spell enchanted on the item. "Skill 15-19 (...) Cost: Reduced by 1." So any spell that is cast from an item should have its energy cost reduced by one but Magic and the older Magic Item books imply otherwise.

Oh I see what you mean, since Power is used as the spell skill (ie you roll against a 15 to see if your Fireball Wand generates a fireball or not) it should be -1 energy to create the fireball?

Originally Posted by maximara

for the quirk to work at all the Powerstone must in someway function even though its at Power 10 in low mana. ANd if a Powerstone somehow functions then it must recharge per the spell description even though its Power is below 15.

Perhaps it is possible for a quirk to function in mana even if the enchantment itself does not? There must be some quirks with drawbacks not pertaining to their use... like a bad smell regardless of whether you're using it?

Originally Posted by maximara

IMHO Manastones are a mug's game. Why would any sane mage bother with them?

Not enough energy to make a powerstone, I guess? It's somewhere to put your FP into each hour. Hourly investments of 5 FP (you regenerate 6 per hour of rest even without Recover Energ) could build up enough to cast a 12 FP (one college) or 20 FP (all colleges) powerstone spell without needing helpers or tapping your HP.

Of course, once as caster has a decent amount of FP/ER (enough to spend 12 or 20 without dropping below 1/3 into penalties-region) they'd definitely be better off just casting powerstone directly...

TBH it seems like Manastone ought to be a prereq for Powerstone. That would create more incentive to put a point in it, or at least make Powerstone an additional -1 default if using Ritual Magic rules.

To make powerstones even rarer, since we know that "One College Powerstone" is actually a separate spell, you could make the progression be Manastone > OCP > ACP so it would actually be -2 harder than manastone to do.

Then the explanation for doing Manastone wouldn't just be 'it's cheaper' but also 'it's easier'.

Originally Posted by maximara

the defacto "Rule of 20" magic items have.

I don't understand what this means :(

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Plane

I think the intent might be to express a limitation to how powerstones normally function.

IE even if the Recharging Rack had a Power of 30, it still won't work in Low Mana.(

But why is that limitation there? Also if Powerstones don't recharge in low mana unless at Power 20+ why mention that the device doesn't work in low mana?

Originally Posted by Plane

Oh I see what you mean, since Power is used as the spell skill (ie you roll against a 15 to see if your Fireball Wand generates a fireball or not) it should be -1 energy to create the fireball?(

Yes, This exactly.

Originally Posted by Plane

Perhaps it is possible for a quirk to function in mana even if the enchantment itself does not? There must be some quirks with drawbacks not pertaining to their use... like a bad smell regardless of whether you're using it?

But the bad smell is the product of the enchantment and under the "Rule of 15" (for lack of a better name) no "normal" Enchantment with a Power 19 or lower is supposed to work at all in Low mana/sanctity. I say "normal" because Voodoo and Spirit didn't use Power as part of their enchantment process and Hex has its own set of rules. But if the smell still "works" then rechage aspect of Powerstone also work.

It is like being on the Island of Knights (always tell truth) and Knaves (always lie) and have a native say "Listen to me carefully; I am lying." - a paradox.

Oh, per the RAW Hex is the one spell that is implied to continue to work regardless of what the mana level is "To escape from a hexed object, you must remove or suppress the enchantment, find someone to cast a Remove Curse spell, or amputate the body part involved." Note what is not there - going into a low or no mana area. The RAW even states "Hexes aren’t logical!" strongly implying the "logic" of going into a low or no mana area to turn off the Hex will not work.

Originally Posted by Plane

Not enough energy to make a powerstone, I guess?

You don't have enough energy to put one point of energy into the "stone" over 20 days?! (Slow and Sure enchantment.)

Originally Posted by Plane

It's somewhere to put your FP into each hour. Hourly investments of 5 FP (you regenerate 6 per hour of rest even without Recover Energ) could build up enough to cast a 12 FP (one college) or 20 FP (all colleges) powerstone spell without needing helpers or tapping your HP.

The problem there is multiple castings start producing quirks like crazy after 10 castings. At 20 the chance of the stone surviving is only an 11 or less.

From the GURPSwiki: "Anyone using it (Manastone) is using 5 energy to be able to use 1 energy once later. Sure, it takes 20 mage-days to make a Powerstone but the mage will eventually see a return on the energy investment in a normal mana setting in 20 days and any mana level below that makes spell based enchantment rare if not impractical.

The spell cannot even be justified in settings where Powerstone doesn't exist as the energy in vs energy out ratio is total crap"

Originally Posted by Plane

TBH it seems like Manastone ought to be a prereq for Powerstone. That would create more incentive to put a point in it, or at least make Powerstone an additional -1 default if using Ritual Magic rules.

Even if Manastone was a prereq for Powerstone it is still a mug's game in any setting (even those without Powerstone spell) especially where that "elixir" paste (can't remember what it's called) that works like either a Manastone or Powerston exists. If I remember correctly that "mana paste" is far more effective then a Manastone especially if you figure out a way to turn it into an ointment or a hard candy (giving a boost to total FP as long as it lasts)

QUOTE=Plane;2332233]I don't understand what this means :([/QUOTE]

The defacto "Rule of 20" magic items have is in reference to the standard rule that enchantments below 20 are not supposed to work, at all, below Normal mana/sanctity (Basic Set pg 481) with Hex being strongly implied to be an exception.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

But whyespecially where that "elixir" paste (can't remember what it's called) that works like either a Manastone or Powerston exists. If I remember correctly that "mana paste" is far more effective then a Manastone especially if you figure out a way to turn it into an ointment or a hard candy (giving a boost to total FP as long as it lasts)
1)

You are probably mis-remebring the ancient Egyptian elixer known as "Paut". The known components of the recipe have multiple liquids and anything but a liquid form is unlikely.

This wouldn't matter anyway. It works after it is consumed and not during. consuming it slowly would gain you nothing.

Also at $33 an ounce it's a little expensive. It's most attractive when you need or want an Item now and have $ to burn.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

You are probably mis-remebring the ancient Egyptian elixer known as "Paut". The known components of the recipe have multiple liquids and anything but a liquid form is unlikely.

This wouldn't matter anyway. It works after it is consumed and not during. consuming it slowly would gain you nothing.

Given it takes only a turn (1 second) to consume that isn't a big deal. Also the Classic version works like a Powerstone not a manastone. And alchemic items can be turned into Talismans which bypasses the whole consuming thing.

In fact, now that I think about it, having Paut as a Talisman effectively turns it into a Powerstone with a 2 day "recharge" time (3 in low mana and only 1 day in very high mana) as you really don't consume it. Since that "recharge" (dormancy) rate is fixed that makes a Paut Talisman an energy bonanza at three or more doses in normal mana and a total bonanza in low mana.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also at $33 an ounce it's a little expensive. It's most attractive when you need or want an Item now and have $ to burn.

Well it does half the production time of Elixirs related to life, growth, or connections to the Astral Realm and functions as a catalyst and when used that way and so can, in theory, be used again, again, and again.

And per the RAW in Talisman form it functions as a Powerstone in 4e just as the raw elixir did in Classic. More over given a Talisman recharges at number of days equal to the number of weeks it would take to brew (takes 10 days to brew in this case) a Paut Talisman at three or more doses will be at full charge (2 days) long before a powerstone of the same energy is in normal mana. Even better all being in low mana does is double the brewing time which in this case kicks the recharge rate to only 3 days.

The way Talismans work in low mana is that you roll against the effective skill of the alchemist ignoring the -5 penalty to use it.

So learn alchemy 20, throw in technique (Paut, multiple doses) at maximum (+5) and be able to crank out 5 (20-3-2-4+5) dose Paut Talismans every 10 days at and only wait a maximum of 3 days for your "alchemic Powerstone" to fully recharge and roll against a 16 in low mana areas. This is all per the RAW.

The rules are silent on using multiples of the same Talisman so, in theory, you could go all Mandarin and wear 10 of these things and introduce the world to 50 (ouch) energy magic every 2 to 3 days. And this assuming you aren't wear Talimatic armbands or have a Talimatic medallion in addition to your 10 finger rings of fun. Yes know a GM could step in and stop this insanity but by the RAW this seems to allowable.

Crazed mage: Powerstones? I don't need no stinking Powerstones. Eat Paut Talismans! FOOM.
Fighter (behind cover): I thought he used up the rings a while ago.
Thief: He did. Appears that he has a lot more of those things.
Crazed mage: Rings? I have more then rings. I have chokers, I have necklaces, I have arm bands, I have...
Fighter: Just how many of these Talimatic Powerstones does this maniac have?!
Thief: Too freaking many in my book.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Plane

TBH it seems like Manastone ought to be a prereq for Powerstone. That would create more incentive to put a point in it, or at least make Powerstone an additional -1 default if using Ritual Magic rules.:(

As I say, I think Manastone is intended to be an alternative for a setting that just doesn't haver Powerstone.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by maximara

Oh, per the RAW Hex is the one spell that is implied to continue to work regardless of what the mana level is "To escape from a hexed object, you must remove or suppress the enchantment, find someone to cast a Remove Curse spell, or amputate the body part involved." Note what is not there - going into a low or no mana area. The RAW even states "Hexes aren’t logical!" strongly implying the "logic" of going into a low or no mana area to turn off the Hex will not work.

About Hex :

To escape from a hexed object, you must remove or suppress the enchantment, find someone to cast a Remove Curse spell, or amputate the body part involved.

Suspend Enchantment
As Remove Enchantment, but the enchantment is merely suppressed.

enchantments are suspended, not dispelled, by no-mana zones.

So by my reading, moving in a no-mana zone would suspend (suppress) the Hex enchantement, allowing to remove the hexed item.


About Manastone

Originally Posted by maximara

The spell cannot even be justified in settings where Powerstone doesn't exist as the energy in vs energy out ratio is total crap"

I disagree, having played a character (low cp hedge wizard) with manastone.

In a setting without powerstone or paut, it is useful, especially for low-level wizard.

A few $50 or $100 items = a few more fp for when you absolutely need that spell, now.
Reenchant as needed before going to sleep in safe places.

Limited ? Yes.
Less usefull for wizards with very high skills, energy reserve, ... , or if better options (powerstone, energy item, paut, ....) exist ? Yes.
Useless ? Not in my opinion.

[Taneli]

OK, so going by the implications from GURPS Magic, here are some things to consider:

1) Do you record enchanter's skill level for each casting, and determine the powerstones power for each point of energy separately? By the book, it would seem to be so. That's the way it works with every other enchantment. If you don't do this, HOW DO YOU DETERMINE the power of a powerstone? By the first ever casting? By the most recent casting? Explain, please.

2) Does the powerstone recharge in low mana, if it's power is under 20? It wouldn't seem to be doing so, as the enchantment ceases to function when the power is reduced to below 15.

3) Does the less than power-20 powerstone lose the charge when taken to low mana? And do all powerstones lose the charge when taken to no mana? There's an indication for this, as the point of the enchantment is to store the mana, and enchantments do not work when their power is reduced under 15, or taken to no mana.

4) When generating treasure (or other items in the world), do you as the GM remember to add in quirks for the stones? The rules do indicate that the vast majority of all powerstones over more than a handful of energy storage should have quirks.


Now, does anyone actually run a game with these things? I haven't. 1) is just too much bookkeeping in my opinion for the reward. As I don't record the power of powerstones, it naturally follows that the point 2) is moot, powerstones recharge as the table indicates, period. Also, point 3) loses the bit about low mana. On no mana, I've usually ruled that powerstones keep their current charge - altough that might be an interesting variant to say that they lose their charge. I guess it would mean that big stones would almost never be moved, except in large processions with mages sensing mana all the time to make sure that the stone gets to where it's going with full charge. Might actually be funny...

Now, 4) is something that I haven't done that much in the past. I should probably either find or build some kind of thingy that generates the stone randomly most of the time, and reserve the pure unquirked stones for the really wealthy arch wizards and whatnots.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Taneli

OK, so going by the implications from GURPS Magic, here are some things to consider:

2) Does the powerstone recharge in low mana, if it's power is under 20? It wouldn't seem to be doing so, as the enchantment ceases to function when the power is reduced to below 15.

(...)
2) is moot, powerstones recharge as the table indicates, period.

That the way I read the text as well. Heck, if you want to get really crazy you could have mages trying to figure out how to intentionally cause the Mana Pool "quirk". Think about it. What mage wouldn't want a Powerstone that acts as if the local mana was one step or even two steps higher?

OF course that produces a really weird effect if you take a Power 20 Powerstone with the mana pool quirk into a no-mana zone.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by maximara

But why is that limitation there?

No idea, quirk of the rack?

Originally Posted by maximara

Also if Powerstones don't recharge in low mana unless at Power 20+ why mention that the device doesn't work in low mana?

Since otherwise you would assume it did.

Originally Posted by maximara

But the bad smell is the product of the enchantment and under the "Rule of 15" (for lack of a better name) no "normal" Enchantment with a Power 19 or lower is supposed to work at all in Low mana/sanctity. I say "normal" because Voodoo and Spirit didn't use Power as part of their enchantment process and Hex has its own set of rules. But if the smell still "works" then rechage aspect of Powerstone also work.

Unless maybe you had different 'Power' for different stages of stone enchantment, maybe the smell-stage power failure was higher than the success-stage.

Originally Posted by maximara

Oh, per the RAW Hex is the one spell that is implied to continue to work regardless of what the mana level is "To escape from a hexed object, you must remove or suppress the enchantment, find someone to cast a Remove Curse spell, or amputate the body part involved." Note what is not there - going into a low or no mana area. The RAW even states "Hexes aren’t logical!" strongly implying the "logic" of going into a low or no mana area to turn off the Hex will not work.

Didn't notice. Maybe it assumes No Mana areas are rare?

Originally Posted by maximara

You don't have enough energy to put one point of energy into the "stone" over 20 days?! (Slow and Sure enchantment.)

Or 80 days if you can't find something valuable.

Originally Posted by maximara

The problem there is multiple castings start producing quirks like crazy after 10 castings. At 20 the chance of the stone surviving is only an 11 or less.

You can use a spell to figure out the quirk and work around it.

Originally Posted by maximara

From the GURPSwiki: "Anyone using it (Manastone) is using 5 energy to be able to use 1 energy once later. Sure, it takes 20 mage-days to make a Powerstone but the mage will eventually see a return on the energy investment in a normal mana setting in 20 days and any mana level below that makes spell based enchantment rare if not impractical.

The spell cannot even be justified in settings where Powerstone doesn't exist as the energy in vs energy out ratio is total crap"

I disagree because it's useful for emergencies. Otherwise your FP regen is going nowhere.

Originally Posted by maximara

Even if Manastone was a prereq for Powerstone it is still a mug's game in any setting (even those without Powerstone spell) especially where that "elixir" paste (can't remember what it's called) that works like either a Manastone or Powerston exists.

Paut? There's a limit to how much you can drink.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Given it takes only a turn (1 second) to consume that isn't a big deal. Also the Classic version works like a Powerstone not a manastone..

As the essentiual difference between Powerstones and Manastones is that Powerstones can be used more than once Paut is not at all like a Powerstone.

Also, what do you think is the "classic" version of Paut? It's first mentioned in Gurps Egypt but while it's mentioned as "sort of liquid powerstone" (this mention probably predates Manastone)it's emphasized that it can't be recharged and is made by secret rituals rather than Alchemy. It also costs $700 an ounce.

It's next mentioned in Gurps Cabal and the only real difference there is that the secret is specified as being limited to Cabalists of Practioner Rank or higher.

It is only in Gurps Thaumatology that Paut is produced by Alchemy Skill with stats for production.

Oh, I also could find no mention of Talisman's recharging twice as fast in High Mana and half as fast in Low. The half as fast in Low can be jsutified because elixers take 2x as long to make in Low.. They don't take half as long in High.