making it so large powerstones don't stop small ones from recharging

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Not in 4e. Powerstones do not function below Power 15 in 4e.

No magic items work below (adjusted for local mana) Power-15 in 4e and to my knowledge never have in any previous edition.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Not in 4e. Powerstones do not function below Power 15 in 4e.

I meant in regards to recharging not using. If Powerstone did not function below Power 15 it could not recharge in low mans because that is a function of the powerstone Q.E.D. And if it cannot recharge in low mana at below Power 20 the spell description should point this out rather then saying the Powerstone recharges at 1 point/week in low mana. It's an inconstancy.

Recover Energy is a spell where this works in reverse - "This spell does not function in lower no-mana areas" even if known at skill level 20.

Why throw in exception to the bace -5 for low mana mechanic?

[AlexanderHowl]

A Power 15 Powerstone cannot recharge in a low mana area, only a Power 20+ Powerstone can recharge in low mana areas. Enchantments do not function below Power 15, there are no exceptions.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A Power 15 Powerstone cannot recharge in a low mana area, only a Power 20+ Powerstone can recharge in low mana areas. Enchantments do not function below Power 15, there are no exceptions.

You missed the point I was raising. The Powerstone enchantment doesn't expressly state that a Powerstone must be at Power 20 to recharge in Low Mana but only that in a Low Mona area a powerstone recharges 1 point/week period.

Compounding the issue is that since you need a 15+ in both the Enchant and the spell you want to enchant you should be getting the skill energy bonus if the effective skill is 15+ but there is nothing in the text to suggest this and if anything the Power spell suggests the exact opposite.

I would like to point that even in 4e there are exceptions - the Enchantments built as powers option in Thaumatology (pg 113-115), Supers, Horror, and several other books and implied in Basic with regards to Racial Magic.

Such items have no skill level and therefor a Power of 0. Fireball (+50%): Burning Attack 6d+2 (Explosion 1, +50%) [50] is one such example.

In fact, GURPS Thaumatology goes out of its way to explain that since the Djinn Lamp itself does not have the Mana Sensitive, -10% it is effectively unaffected by either Mana or Sanctity though the djinni's abilities likely will be. (pg 115)

Orc Shaman: this holy area is no mana and no sanctity to your deity so your staff is...
Mage (with Powers based Staff of Fireballs): Fireball
Orc Shaman (now badly burnt): What just happened?
Mage: Fireball
Orc Shaman (now in the Orc afterlife): Ok, would someone please explain to me how an (several colorful Orc curse words) enchanted staff that was not an Object of Power worked in a freaking no mana and no sanctity area?!
Gruumsh (supreme Orc deity): Several deities are trying out a totally different way of making items that are not dependent on mana or sanctity.
KABOOM AHHHH "Ilneval is trying to duplicate the process but is having problems. Looks like this time he set himself and the five dead shaman spirits with him on fire." Gruumsh smiled putting his hand on the Orc SHaman's shoulder. "But we have anther spirit to help us."
Orc Shaman: ... Oh crap.

[AlexanderHowl]

It does not need to spell it out, it is a basic feature of enchantments. It is an if/then argument. If Powerstone is an enchantment, then it requires Power 15+ to function. If a Powerstone is functional, then it can recharge. If a Powerstone recharges, then it recharges 1 point/week in low mana areas.

In the case of a Powers based staff of Fireball, it is a magical gadget, not a magical item, which is a completely different kettle of fish. If it has the Magical (-10%) modifier, which it should (like the Magical Sword on the same page), then it suffers a -5 to skill in low mana areas and does not operate in no mana areas. If the orc is in a no mana area, them magic does not work. If the staff possesses the Magical modifier, then the orc is safe.

[Anaraxes]

Maximara could be taking the Powerstone spell text as a case of the specific rule overriding the general one, since it just lists a flat rate of recharge based on mana level with no other inputs.

(Personally, I never read it that way. I'd think that chart doesn't mention item power because it's not relevant, as the chart only is trying to define recharge rates. The chart isn't overriding rules elsewhere to cancel them by not mentioning them; it's just ignoring them, thus leaving them untouched. It's not like every chart in the game can list every rule that applies in general to confirm or deny each one. The chart of Maneuvers on B551 says you get "Full Move" during a Move, without feeling obliged to note "unless you're dead or restrained or prone, crawling", etc.)

[Plane]

A powerstone seems a lot like having ER (Magic) w/ Slow Recharge, albeit more interesting since the slowness varies with mana level unlike ER's limitations.

If ER (Magic) doesn't drop to zero when "switched off" (merely becoming inaccessible and non-recharging) then I wouldn't imagine Powerstone would either. Energy has to go somewhere, right?

Originally Posted by maximara

On a site note Powerstone is one of the few spells where the "Rule of 15", where enchanted items stop working when below Power 15 (adjusted for mana) doesn't apply.

Do you know where in 3E it specified that?

Originally Posted by MIB.6361

The powerstones enhancment is that it can hold mana. If it can't, it's empty when it re-enters a mana zone.

One thing that seems odd is that M69 bothers to tell us "Recharge Rate: None" for Local Mana: None. Given what a big problem it would be if your already-charged mana evaporated the instant you passed through a No Mana zone, it sounds like something the author probably would have noted too.

Another thing to ask is: what happens to Manastones? Enchantments are supposed to be unusable in No Mana, not destroyed, yet if you drain the mana out of a manastone, isn't it effectively destroying the enchantment? It can't regenerate on it's own and M126-7 "Charge Powerstone" can't be used for it.

Same Q for spellstones or spell arrows: they obviously store 1-shot magical energy like a manastone (except it's a specific spell) so would they be ruined by No Mana?

Originally Posted by maximara

since you need a 15+ in both the Enchant and the spell you want to enchant you should be getting the skill energy bonus if the effective skill is 15+ but there is nothing in the text to suggest this and if anything the Power spell suggests the exact opposite.

I'm not understanding what you mean here, M57 mentions casting/maintaining cost reduction is halved in low mana and doubled in high/VH (no idea on how very low / twisted / wild in Thaum would work)

Regarding skill energy bonus, do you mean the cost reduction for high skill? That doesn't apply to ceremonial magic. On the flip side, you can increase your skill by pumping in more energy.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

You missed the point I was raising. The Powerstone enchantment doesn't expressly state that a Powerstone must be at Power 20 to recharge in Low Mana but only that in a Low Mona area a powerstone recharges 1 point/week period.

As noted, it does not need to be noted that a Magic Item with an effective Power below 15 does not work.

As to your other exceptions they are not exceptions to the Enchantment rules in Magic. They are things made with other game systems. They are not "Enchantments" as that term is defined in Magic and don't have Power scores at all rather than having Power scores of 0.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Maximara could be taking the Powerstone spell text as a case of the specific rule overriding the general one, since it just lists a flat rate of recharge based on mana level with no other inputs.

Exactly and the way Powerstone Recharge Rack in Magic Items 1 pg 65-66 goes out of its way to state it will not work in regions below Normal mana implies that Powerstone would normally recharge in low mana age even if at Power 15 - otherwise why go out of your way to mention that? While we are at it why doesn't Powerstone Recharge Rack work in low mana even if it has Power 20?

Originally Posted by Plane

Do you know where in 3E it specified that?

It's not expressly stated but strongly implied by the way Powerstone Recharge Rack (Magic Items 1 pg 65-66) works. Otherwise it would simply remind the reader that Powerstone would have to be Power 20 to recharge even if in the box. Instead it state that an item enchanted Powerstone Recharge Rack doesn't work in low-mana period which means the box being at Power 20 does you no good.

Powerstone Charger also implies this as "It allows a single Powerstone to recharge as if the local mana level were one increment higher. In a very high mana area, the Charger allows the stone to regain one point per hour." A Powerstone with the Mana Pool "Quirk" also behaves this way.

Originally Posted by Plane

Regarding skill energy bonus, do you mean the cost reduction for high skill? That doesn't apply to ceremonial magic. On the flip side, you can increase your skill by pumping in more energy.

I was referring to the spell cast from the item not the spell enchanted on the item. "Skill 15-19 (...) Cost: Reduced by 1." So any spell that is cast from an item should have its energy cost reduced by one but Magic and the older Magic Item books imply otherwise.

Originally Posted by Plane

One thing that seems odd is that M69 bothers to tell us "Recharge Rate: None" for Local Mana: None. Given what a big problem it would be if your already-charged mana evaporated the instant you passed through a No Mana zone, it sounds like something the author probably would have noted too.

Magic Item 1 through much of that out the window with the Mana Pool "quirk" and Powerstone Charger which causes the Powerstone to work as if it was in a mana zone one step higher.

Of course this creates a paradox when you consider a Powerstone with Power 15 and the Mana Pool quirk. Since the quirk is part of the enchantment then Powerstone should not work in a low mana area but the quirk makes the Powerstone acts like the Mana level is normal which means it does work. But for the quirk to work at all the Powerstone must in someway function even though its at Power 10 in low mana. ANd if a Powerstone somehow functions then it must recharge per the spell description even though its Power is below 15.

The book only has Unknown regarding the Powerstone Charger so it may not be an enchantment at all (there are several items that are not or are natural enchantments). This gives up the issue of what the Power of natural enchantments is.

IMHO Manastones are a mug's game. Why would any sane mage bother with them?

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Because it is a specific limitation of the magical item, not a feature of the Powerstone enchantment.

But why have it at all? It breaks the defacto "Rule of 20" magic items have.

[AlexanderHowl]

Because it is a specific limitation of the magical item, not a feature of the Powerstone enchantment.