[DF] Why don't sea elves have Speak Underwater?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't have a conceptual problem with amphibious humanoids using a sign language.

That's my first thought, really.

[Flyndaran]

That would then mean they lack a fluency in Sea Elf Sign language rather than Speak Underwater.
No matter how you try to make it work realistically, the whole issue is just better swept under the rug for the vast majority of DF games.

[Cowrie]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I don't have a conceptual problem with amphibious humanoids using a sign language.

My only issue with that is that visibility conditions undergo a pretty steep decline underwater. OTOH, I'm firmly behind any cephalopod race having a language based on color- and pattern-changes, with maybe some tentacle gestures thrown in, but I tend to give any cephalopod race I stat up Night Vision 5 as a minimum, and deep-dwelling squidfolk tend to get it in the range of levels 7-9, which eliminates a good portion of visibility penalties from darkness.

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm also not convinced that speak underwater should be more than a perk.

This, I can get behind.

[Flyndaran]

Real cephalopods are colorblind. But yeah, sapient humanoid versions would seem lacking without such a language.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Cowrie

My only issue with that is that visibility conditions undergo a pretty steep decline underwater. d.

As amphibians while they may be able to dive deep they probably live most of their lives in coastal shallow water and leave the real deeps to rather darker denizens.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Real cephalopods are colorblind.

. They don't see colors with retinal pigments, but that doesn't mean they are colorblind. They may see colors via exploiting chromatic aberration instead of the way we do.

They certainly can sense color, because they are able to use their chromatophores to communicate and camouflage.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That would then mean they lack a fluency in Sea Elf Sign language rather than Speak Underwater.

Language isn't usually part of Racial Templates...

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

. They don't see colors with retinal pigments, but that doesn't mean they are colorblind. They may see colors via exploiting chromatic aberration instead of the way we do.

They certainly can sense color, because they are able to use their chromatophores to communicate and camouflage.

They detect color density. I remember seeing funny experiments where they use hues that appear identical to them but are obviously different colors to us. They stick out like sore thumbs.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Language isn't usually part of Racial Templates...

Sure, because it's one of the many things swept under the rug in DF. That was part of my point.

[Cowrie]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

As amphibians while they may be able to dive deep they probably live most of their lives in coastal shallow water and leave the real deeps to rather darker denizens.

While light penalties may be less severe at those depths, all water provides a -2 vision penalty, which can be negated by Nictitating Membrane, but sea elves only have a single level of that, so there's -1 in penalties right off the bat. Pyramid 3/26 suggests further penalties for murky water, giving the examples of -1 for most seawater and up to -10 where a silty bottom has been stirred up, which seems like a more likely concern in shallow coastal water. So that's a minimum of -2 in penalties. Now to consider light, Powers - Enhanced Senses says that light conditions worsen another level for every 75 yards deeper underwater (I personally think that's probably a bit too generous, but that's a whole 'nother discussion). That means near the seafloor on the continental shelf would commonly inflict an additional -1 penalty, and I'd argue that going by the illumination table in that book, underwater shouldn't count as "direct sunlight" unless the water's clear enough not to cause murkiness penalties, instead being at best "full daylight", for a -1 lighting penalty even before getting more penalties for depth. So that's -3 for sea elves even in water no deeper than 74 yards. Not what I'd call ideal conditions for sign language.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

They detect color density. I remember seeing funny experiments where they use hues that appear identical to them but are obviously different colors to us. They stick out like sore thumbs.

They technically detect light polarization, which at most depths under the water can actually be more useful than traditional color vision, due to water filtering out most or all red or orange light-waves so that everything looks more blue-green in color. Also, at least one species of cephalopod, the firefly squid is very likely to be able to see color in the traditional sense, as they have been shown to have three visual pigments in their eyes with different spectral sensitivities.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Sure, because it's one of the many things swept under the rug in DF. That was part of my point.

In general it's left out of racial templates, not just in DF. Look in GURPS Fantasy, or even Banestorm if you want something part of a setting with definite languages. No languages included in racial templates.