[MA] Finger Lock - what's the point?

[Flyndaran]

I've never been a bouncer or even in a fight. But I thought once drunks get violent, their ability to judge situations reasonably, even slightly, has long since left the building.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I've never been a bouncer or even in a fight. But I thought once drunks get violent, their ability to judge situations reasonably, even slightly, has long since left the building.

Like everything there's a scale, not all drunks become completely impervious to reason (and pain), and not everyone throwing punches is equally drunk of course.

However one thing I should say, I'd guess that bouncers over here would actually be less likely to use finger hold simply because I'd guess in a struggle you might be more likely to break a finger you have in a hold, than say a wrist or arm you have in a hold. Actually breaking something might leave you (and the place you work for) more open for trouble later on, as lasting damage tends to get frowned on more than a pain hold that has no ongoing repercussions.

That said some of the stories I've heard lead me to believe that concern for lasting damage may not be too high on every bouncers priority list!

[TheOneRonin]

We train a body of finger and hand/wrist locks in Modern Arnis. Though the goal is usually to prompt a change of focus from your opponent than any long-lasting pain compliance.

I've seen it in action many times. People (especially untrained) who find themselves in a pain-inducing lock will naturally try to move in such a way as to minimize the pain. This can be anything from an attempted rapid retraction to a full-on posture change (most common). But one thing that is almost universal is that a "good" finger/wrist lock will not only get your opponent's attention, but will likely make him change his initial course of action.

One thing we don't do with locks like that is try to maintain control. We put the lock on just long enough to create an opening for a strike/throw/whatever. Maintaining a small joint lock on a non-compliant opponent for any length of time is exceedingly difficult.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Alcohol is likely to brunt or even negate the pain of even a broken finger.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

To an extent, but it tends to blunt or negate other methods of drawing the drinkers attention to things faster though!

It's not about crippling someone with pain (which I agree is not close to certain with finger locks), its about focussing attention or dissuading someone.

Yeah, pretty much. It can reduce pain, but from my expeirence (within and without) it mostly blunts you thinking about it. You know you're hurt, but it's not a huge concern at the moment. Pain still hurts (ignore Swayze for the moment).

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I've never been a bouncer or even in a fight. But I thought once drunks get violent, their ability to judge situations reasonably, even slightly, has long since left the building.

Sometimes. There are the "clear-headed" drunks who are still buzzed, but still okay. Sometimes they're spoiling for a fight, sometimes they just want to talk and are super-chatty. Those type can be dangerous as hell, because their inhibitions are loose, but their ability to think isn't really affected. These are the sorts of folks who can drink a fifth, drive home, and get into bed before passing out. I knew this one boomer who could drink like a fish and pass any sobriety test he needed to.

[Flyndaran]

I do understand how bizarrely varied response to intoxicants can be.
Long before I suffer impaired judgment, my sense of balance drops to headless chicken levels.
While large doses of opiates just make me mentally fuzzy. (Prescribed, just completely ineffective for pain management.)

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

...

Sometimes. There are the "clear-headed" drunks who are still buzzed, but still okay. Sometimes they're spoiling for a fight, sometimes they just want to talk and are super-chatty. Those type can be dangerous as hell, because their inhibitions are loose, but their ability to think isn't really affected. These are the sorts of folks who can drink a fifth, drive home, and get into bed before passing out. I knew this one boomer who could drink like a fish and pass any sobriety test he needed to.

Yeah, I did forget about idiots to whom alcohol only acts to lightly shove over the edge into violence.
I was only thinking of those willfully "thugging" and blasted drunks unaware of their actions or consequences thereof.

[Cheomesh]

I've broken fingers, while sober, beating on people or things. I've even got a boxer's fracture on my left little finger, such that I can't make it line up with the rest of the other fingers on that hand. None of these breaks "kicked in" until well after the event was over, however.

M.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Cheomesh

I've broken fingers, while sober, beating on people or things. I've even got a boxer's fracture on my left little finger, such that I can't make it line up with the rest of the other fingers on that hand. None of these breaks "kicked in" until well after the event was over, however.

M.

Thing is breaking a finger and a joint lock are actually two different things when it come to pain, bodies register and react to pain in very different ways depending on lots of variables.

For instance: Something happening quickly while you concentrating on something else vs. a slow increase and maintenance of pain levels.

Think how often you've hurt yourself but only realised it when you then jar the thing you hurt latter on.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Cheomesh

I've broken fingers, while sober, beating on people or things. I've even got a boxer's fracture on my left little finger, such that I can't make it line up with the rest of the other fingers on that hand. None of these breaks "kicked in" until well after the event was over, however.

M.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Thing breaking a finger and a joint lock are actually two different things when it come to pain, bodies register and react to pain in very different ways depending on lots of variables.

For instance: Something happening quickly while you concentrating on something else vs. a slow increase and maintenance of pain levels.

Think how often you've hurt yourself but only realised it when you then jar the thing you hurt latter on.

Yeah, this is true. Our "Gating" response tends to register "outside" pain and "inside" pain as two different things. I personally have never broken a bone (and I've been in plenty of situations where I should have), but I've hurt myself plenty. If you're a experienced martial artist or combatant (or in my case, scrapper) you come to expect a certain amount of pain that comes with a fight. Fight bite, bruises, etc. are just part of the territory. By accepting them and moving on you tend to ignore them until the adrenaline isn't flowing.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Yeah, this is true. Our "Gating" response tends to register "outside" pain and "inside" pain as two different things. I personally have never broken a bone (and I've been in plenty of situations where I should have), but I've hurt myself plenty. If you're a experienced martial artist or combatant (or in my case, scrapper) you come to expect a certain amount of pain that comes with a fight. Fight bite, bruises, etc. are just part of the territory. By accepting them and moving on you tend to ignore them until the adrenaline isn't flowing.

Quite, and as you say acclimatisation is a big part of training as well.

A lot of people aren't used to physical confrontation and tend to freeze up, even less are used to getting hit or hurt during physical confrontation and can freeze up at that as well.


I remember a teacher I had once who said (paraphrased):


I teach you how not to get into fights, but that is the ideal. If you are going to get hit in a fight you want your reaction to be "huh I got hit harder than that in sparring on Thursday night" rather than "ow, ow, ow, what the ****"


(just to say he was talking about the fact that lots of real fights tend to involve hits that aren't actually that hard, most being flailing punches thrown by people who are concentrating more on why they are throwing them not how they are throwing them. We weren't beating each other up or walloping each other with sticks "spetnaz style" or anything)!

basically just another version of train like you fight, fight like you train