False god idea

[tanksoldier]

Just let me say that having Hell in opposition to the rest of the Divine is a very strong assumption, likely of some modern Christian denomination

This. Gods of death and/or judgement-punishment aren't necessarily evil. Death is a necessary function of life and somebody has to be responsible for it. Judgement and punishment are likewise responsibilities somebody has to handle.

Hades/ Pluto ran the entire afterlife, reward and punishment sides both.

Even tho Lucifer was "banished" to Hell in modern Christian mythology there's no evidence that he's being tortured there. He runs the place. Somebody has to. The whole fire-and-brimstone Hell idea is a relatively recent invention. Originally eternal punishment was simply the certain knowledge that God exists, and then eternal separation from Him... which was supposedly Lucifer's punishment as well... but if you just had a knock-down drag-out fight with Dad would you be banished, or would you leave? Would it depend on who was telling the story?

...and the idea that Good is more powerful because it lives in the "good place" and Evil is less powerful because it lives in a the "bad place" is just as likely to be Good propaganda as anything else. A god of blood and gore wouldn't think green fields full of fluffy bunnies was a "good place" to begin with and would likely start turning those bunnies into blood and gore to suit it's own preferences in decorating.

Almost nobody seen as "Evil", god or mortal, thinks of themselves as evil. Even a god of murder isn't necessarily evil... what does he DO with the portfolio of murder? Does he promote murder, or does he protect would be victims and avenge the unjustly murdered? They all have reasons and justifications for what they do. Lucifer was upstaged by humans, Loki was mocked and belittled, Hades and Pluto were neutral gods of judgement and the afterlife.

Occasionally "evil" gods and men even see themselves as good. There's an old series of DnD novels about an order of paladins and the potential for evil that exists when so many self righteous and self-assured "good" beings impose their version of good on others.

So, the idea that Evil is less powerful because it lives in what you think of as a bad, uncomfortable place is probably a fallacy... evil lives where it is comfortable and changes it's environment to suit it's desires and tastes, just like everybody else.

[Flyndaran]

That all fits realistic people and belief systems, but this is for DFRPG where EVIL! and GOOD! exists.
Most bad guys are irredeemably intrinsically mustache twirling villains.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Originally eternal punishment was simply the certain knowledge that God exists, and then eternal separation from Him... which was supposedly Lucifer's punishment as well...

I find very difficult and impractical trying to develop more past this point, since with the guilty Lucifer of Christianity there's no more the perspective I was talking about; with that element, things are more exoteric and prone to see the Devil not only as the enemy of man (the default), but of God as well —which is pretty dualistic! (meaning irreducible opposition). Actually both perspectives intermingle there, and I don't think it easy or fair to systematize.

...and the idea that Good is more powerful because it lives in the "good place" and Evil is less powerful because it lives in a the "bad place" is just as likely to be Good propaganda as anything else.

Good as "more powerful" derives from ontology, with Platonism and also Christianity, for instance, identifying Good with the universal Being (corresponding in religions to the One and Only God of "monotheisms"), and evil "being" a non-entity in itself, a lack of being inside creation, like shadow is the absence of light. So it's secondary.

However, there are other complementary perspectives to this one, and what looks evil to man sometimes has the upper hand. Otherwise the armies of Gog and Magog or the Anti-Christ couldn't reach such an apex of power, for instance, although there's intrinsic weakness and delusional power at the end. On the other hand, what sometimes looks like evil to man, is the unmanifest, the end of all outwardly things which often is expressed by "monstrous and dreadful divinities", despite it having nothing to do with demons in the usual sense, as losers. Sometimes Hell also links to the same thing, it not being then "a place".

the idea that Evil is less powerful because it lives in what you think of as a bad, uncomfortable place is probably a fallacy...

The perspective I can gather from b-dog's explanation is that his Hells are manifested domains, places inside the creation ("planes"), which ontologically, according to the vertical character of the great chain of being, fall under Heavens and earth, with the increased distance from the Origin it implies, having then lesser degrees of Being, more intense deprivation of qualities and thus, power too.

However one of my points above, related to "the false god strategy" of this thread, is that demons can grow powerful in certain situations, in the same way gods can diminish —if not in themselves, at least in their capacity to exert influence in the mortal realm. It can be related to specific epochs and ages of the world having to do with cyclic beginnings and endings.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That all fits realistic people and belief systems, but this is for DFRPG where EVIL! and GOOD! exists.
Most bad guys are irredeemably intrinsically mustache twirling villains.

That's right! However realistic beliefs also have Good and Evil, or at least their approximate equivalents; it's only that very often they include dimensions that go beyond the concepts or reveal additional meanings. In any case, to my mind is good to elaborate angles, at least occasionally, because it's enriching and for having options of going beyond misconceptions or prejudices.

And of course after a while there's also the need of focusing again in specific and practical assumptions for a fantasy role playing game. It's an exercise of zooming out and zooming in.

Even with what I said before, which is no "relativism" actually, there still are plenty entities of darkness which need to be defeated and translates as evil demons along with many other types of adversaries.

[DocRailgun]

What's more, an omnipotent and omniscient supreme God necessarily has assigned the role of corrupting humans and the rulership of Hell to an angel. It's all part of the plan.

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

Even tho Lucifer was "banished" to Hell in modern Christian mythology there's no evidence that he's being tortured there. He runs the place. Somebody has to. The whole fire-and-brimstone Hell idea is a relatively recent invention. Originally eternal punishment was simply the certain knowledge that God exists, and then eternal separation from Him... which was supposedly Lucifer's punishment as well... but if you just had a knock-down drag-out fight with Dad would you be banished, or would you leave? Would it depend on who was telling the story?

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