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Old 01-11-2018, 11:25 AM   #261
JLV
 
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

This is a really good point, however, I would say that I think with GURPS, Steve Jackson Games have proven they can keep a large number of "splat" books and some quite good adventures on the shelves (at least metaphorically, with PDFs), and thus are likely to be able to translate that into a growing background for TFT in terms of both adventures and background data.

Having said that, the real issue becomes one of time and resources. Where, exactly, are they -- a small game company -- going to fit new TFT source material and adventures into a production schedule already crammed to the rafters with GURPS, Munchkin, Ogre, the up-coming Car Wars, plus all the various "one-shots" (Triplanetary, Awful Green Things, Castellan, etc.)? We've already seen some truly excellent games (Kung Fu 2100, Undead, Necromancer, One Page Bulge, Startrader, etc.) plus phenomenal support materials (Cardboard Heroes -- available in PDF, but unless I go for a better printer so I can do thicker cardboard, not really "available" to me out here in nowheresville) go out of stock permanently.

One possible solution might be to do something like Wizards and Chaosium have done -- license third party "unofficial" production via OneBookShelf -- which, for example, seems to be really working for Chaosium (I haven't paid too much attention to D&D 5.0, honestly, but I assume Chaosium went there because Wizards had success with that model) with their "Mythos" section. Such a system would allow total amateurs to get adventures/dungeons especially into people's hands very quickly (and SJG could always skim the truly outstanding ones off the top and publish them formally, with proper editing, etc.) and help grow both the brand, and the back library.

Of course, one key reason why TFT DOESN'T have that nice backlog is that Metagaming went Tango Uniform only two years after publishing ITL, etc., and right in the middle of the first attempt to release the kind of materials we're talking about here -- the Lands Beyond the Mountains series by Gamelords. Had that not happened, and had circumstances beyond Steve's control not kept it in nearly complete limbo for 35 more years, we might have quite a large back library for TFT by now...
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:41 PM   #262
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Based on the nature of the game, the likely market size, and the interests of the likely customers, the correct model to emulate might be the more successful companies that specialize in the OSR market. Goodman Games is probably the best example of someone who has found a recipe that appeals to people interested in ca. 1980 roleplaying games and their clones: They present a balanced menu of very nice reproductions of original materials (their Judges Guild line), a house system that appeals to this market, both in its rules and visual appearance (DCC), a set of dungeons in the style of TSR's pastel module era, and then they have some sort of arrangement that permits/encourages smaller third party authors to bring forward dungeons. Anyway, whatever they are doing seems to work. Their Metamorphosis Alpha line might be the best specific example that is closely similar to TFT (a short lived game with a small but dedicated following, and an initial offering based on a Kickstarter with a long list of stretch goals).
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:36 AM   #263
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Based on the nature of the game, the likely market size, and the interests of the likely customers, the correct model to emulate might be the more successful companies that specialize in the OSR market. Goodman Games is probably the best example of someone who has found a recipe that appeals to people interested in ca. 1980 roleplaying games and their clones: They present a balanced menu of very nice reproductions of original materials (their Judges Guild line), a house system that appeals to this market, both in its rules and visual appearance (DCC), a set of dungeons in the style of TSR's pastel module era, and then they have some sort of arrangement that permits/encourages smaller third party authors to bring forward dungeons. Anyway, whatever they are doing seems to work. Their Metamorphosis Alpha line might be the best specific example that is closely similar to TFT (a short lived game with a small but dedicated following, and an initial offering based on a Kickstarter with a long list of stretch goals).
Well, Call of Cthulhu hit the markets at about the same time as TFT did, which more or less makes it OSR by definition, so there's that... But I also refer back to my earlier post about when (or perhaps better, HOW), precisely, SJGs is going to fit all that work into their already packed production schedule. DCC is, for all practical purposes, Goodman's "flagship property." For SJG, I think it's really, far and away, Munchkin, with GURPS as a somewhat distant second. That doesn't leave a lot of room for TFT in the production schedule -- especially with more Ogre material due out soon, and Car Wars waiting in the wings. Which is why I suggested they might find it valuable to let the fans do some of the heavy lifting for a while, with SJGs acting more as a traffic cop until they CAN clear more space in their production schedule for new TFT material. Just sayin'... ;-)

Plus, I have no idea what kind of market share TFT would have these days. Back in the day, it was the second biggest selling RPG system out there, with D&D being the only thing that was outselling it (probably due more to much wider availability through toy stores and the like, not just hobby shops). Given TFT's beautiful simplicity, compared to some of the things you see on the market these days, I don't consider it entirely impossible that it could take off in a big way. Of course, I might be completely wrong about that too -- what appealed to people in 1980 might not work the same in 2018. But TFT does have at least some kind of track record, and it will be interesting to see how it does comparatively (though, frankly, I don't know if we as gamers will ever get that kind of information...).

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Old 01-12-2018, 02:30 AM   #264
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Plus, I have no idea what kind of market share TFT would have these days. Back in the day, it was the second biggest selling RPG system out there,
This the big question isn't it, how many people will actually remember this game let alone how many are still playing it. It is well known there are game groups out there still playing the same game they were playing in 1980 and playing it with the same people. These gamers fly under the radar, they don't attend tournaments or conventions and probably have not been in a game store since Reagan was the President. It is impossible to know how many of these groups are out there, but I think this might be an interesting test of that market.
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Old 01-12-2018, 08:26 AM   #265
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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This the big question isn't it, how many people will actually remember this game let alone how many are still playing it. It is well known there are game groups out there still playing the same game they were playing in 1980 and playing it with the same people. These gamers fly under the radar, they don't attend tournaments or conventions and probably have not been in a game store since Reagan was the President. It is impossible to know how many of these groups are out there, but I think this might be an interesting test of that market.
And who says that an adventure done by a third party would be only available for TFT?

When I wrote my DnD5e adventure Lost Hall of Tyr, I realized midway through that it would be trivial to convert it to the much-simpler Swords & Wizardry using parentheticals in the text itself. While other systems might require more extensive stat-block work, the hard part - adventure design, layout, art direction and procurement - is already done. It's by and large a straight-forward thing to convert a module's guts in spirit to another platform.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:39 AM   #266
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

The last several posts raise questions that I had I had in mind when I pointed to Metamorphosis Alpha. Most gamers know it as just a title but might have some idea that it was briefly influential and popular in the late 70's. From this inauspicious start, Goodman Games managed to gin up enough interest for a strongly funded Kickstarter and cobbled together the workforce to make a surprisingly extensive and nicely presented line of products. This is clearly a side project and labor of love rather than the company's main business, but they presented products with a range and quality the TFT community would be more than happy to see. I actually think TFT has a much stronger starting market than MA (quite a few people know it, there are probably several thousand who play it actively, it is connected to a well known, in-print system, and it is intrinsically a better game with a deeper catalogue of material). But the two games present pretty similar business models.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:23 PM   #267
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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And who says that an adventure done by a third party would be only available for TFT?

When I wrote my DnD5e adventure Lost Hall of Tyr, I realized midway through that it would be trivial to convert it to the much-simpler Swords & Wizardry using parentheticals in the text itself. While other systems might require more extensive stat-block work, the hard part - adventure design, layout, art direction and procurement - is already done. It's by and large a straight-forward thing to convert a module's guts in spirit to another platform.
I agree. I've been doing this for years due to the lack of new TFT material. (And GURPS is even easier to convert to TFT than things like D&D or the various OSR retro-clones.)
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:26 PM   #268
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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The last several posts raise questions that I had I had in mind when I pointed to Metamorphosis Alpha. Most gamers know it as just a title but might have some idea that it was briefly influential and popular in the late 70's. From this inauspicious start, Goodman Games managed to gin up enough interest for a strongly funded Kickstarter and cobbled together the workforce to make a surprisingly extensive and nicely presented line of products. This is clearly a side project and labor of love rather than the company's main business, but they presented products with a range and quality the TFT community would be more than happy to see. I actually think TFT has a much stronger starting market than MA (quite a few people know it, there are probably several thousand who play it actively, it is connected to a well known, in-print system, and it is intrinsically a better game with a deeper catalogue of material). But the two games present pretty similar business models.
Good point! It will be interesting to see whether SJG opts for strictly in-house publication, or goes for something more community oriented. Given that people have HAD to create their own stuff (barring lazy types like me, who do a lot of conversions) over the past 35 years, I'll bet there are a LOT of good adventures/dungeons out there if people dug through their own materials!
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Old 01-12-2018, 05:39 PM   #269
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

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Good point! It will be interesting to see whether SJG opts for strictly in-house publication, or goes for something more community oriented. Given that people have HAD to create their own stuff (barring lazy types like me, who do a lot of conversions) over the past 35 years, I'll bet there are a LOT of good adventures/dungeons out there if people dug through their own materials!
JLV, you are right. No matter how it is done, having the adventures for players to run will be important to the long term revival of TFT—and for it to expand beyond us people who have loved it since the Carter administration.
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:39 PM   #270
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Default Re: December 26, 2017: The Fantasy Trip Returns Home

Count me in for releasing the entire rules set at once. I'd much rather have a Kickstarter for Advanced Melee, Advanced Wizard and In the Labyrinth together than separate projects. If this was popular enough, an additional Kickstarter could supply the adventures. It would also allow starting a campaign as soon as possible! Bring on the walking land-octopi! Thirty-five years? Yowch! Excuse me while I go off to gum my oatmeal...
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