1980s American Cars, Guns, Gadgets and Consumer Goods [Atmosphere, look, minutiae]

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I assume by counting the last enterprise as dishonorable you are saying he was a kidnapper not a rescuer?

He sold slaves, yes. Indians to other Indians and Canadians, Africans mostly to well-to-do French-Canadians.

The Acadians of New Brunswick and environs apparently considered it a status symbol to own black slaves. Until 1834, it was entirely legal for them to do so, but after 1807, the transport of such slaves by sea (compexities regarding maritime law and sovereignity obviously apply) was illegal by British decree. Enter the enterprising Clay Allen, who never heard of regulatory restraints on any form of trade but he immediately tried to find a way to profit from them.

Family lore has it he was at various times an Indian fighter, a backwoods scout, a trapper, a miner, a farmer, a lumberjack, a pirate, a slaver, a dry goods merchant, a bandit, a distiller, an innkeeper and a hunter. Judging from the stories, he seems to have lived roughly from the English Civil War to the American one, killed around five counties worth of folk, not counting Indians, and been about twelve foot tall in boots and coon hat. He also seems to have taught Old Scratch all that worthy knew about artful and wicked, in between showing Davy Crockett how to shoot and Daniel Boone how to swear.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Ok, another random example.

An NPC born in 1945. Physically and mentally in average health. In 1988, he has a college degree (he's a CPA), but I've not established when that degree was earned. Assuming that he did not succeed in getting a deferment in the mid-60s, perhaps because he could not afford college immediately upon finishing high school, would he most likely have been drafted at age 18 or age 21? Some other age?

If he was drafted, he presumably stood a fairly high chance of getting a non-combat MOE, as he certainly did not seek out a front-line infantry position. What would be the most mundane and common thing to do in the military while Vietnam was going on?

Most common? Probably drinking beer in Germany.

He would have graduated high school and turned 18 in 1963. This was before major escalation in Vietnam and the draft would not have been as high as it was c.65 and later. There was still the need for NATO troops in Europe.

Not being able to afford college tuition in 63 is kind of iffy.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/...t13_330.10.asp

The left side of this is in 2012-13 dollars but scroll over and you'll get the numbers in period dollars. Choose a "public" institution if bargain shopping and the numbers would be quite modest.

Still, in 63 except for freefloating existential nuclear anxiety there would probably not have been that great a worry about military service.

Even for persons who did go to Vietnam later there were a lot of supply and personnel clerks there. I had a high school history teacher who pulled such service and the VC did shell the base he was stationed at multiple nights per week but it probably constituted psychological warfare more than serious combat. My teacher didn't take it personally and was rather blasé about it.

Anyone who was driven by patriotism to serve in possible danger could join the Marines. They were all volunteer.

[dcarson]

Don't know this matters.

I read that when Korea happened the army had lots of new troops and all, the platoon (Lieutenant) and company(Captain) were from after WW II ended so had no combat experience. Since the Reserve has slower promotion rates the Lieutenants that went into the reserves after WW II were now Captains, So lots of them were called back up to command companies in Korea despite having been told that the Reserve would no get called up until after the Army was fully deployed. Good for the troops having experienced commanders, bad for the officers in terms of being shot at.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Icelander

He sold slaves, yes. Indians to other Indians and Canadians, Africans mostly to well-to-do French-Canadians.

The Acadians of New Brunswick and environs apparently considered it a status symbol to own black slaves. Until 1834, it was entirely legal for them to do so, but after 1807, the transport of such slaves by sea (compexities regarding maritime law and sovereignity obviously apply) was illegal by British decree. Enter the enterprising Clay Allen, who never heard of regulatory restraints on any form of trade but he immediately tried to find a way to profit from them.

Family lore has it he was at various times an Indian fighter, a backwoods scout, a trapper, a miner, a farmer, a lumberjack, a pirate, a slaver, a dry goods merchant, a bandit, a distiller, an innkeeper and a hunter. Judging from the stories, he seems to have lived roughly from the English Civil War to the American one, killed around five counties worth of folk, not counting Indians, and been about twelve foot tall in boots and coon hat. He also seems to have taught Old Scratch all that worthy knew about artful and wicked, in between showing Davy Crockett how to shoot and Daniel Boone how to swear.

Yes, he does sound like someone who could have taught the devil his trade.

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I know that the draft theoretically existed from 1940-1973 (an earlier version between 1917-1918). I know that there was nothing theoretical about the draft for Vietnam between 1964-1973. There was also one for WWII, very extensive. Seem to think it applied to Korea, as well, with a lot of the soldiers there being conscripts. I can fairly easily look up the dates, at any rate.

What I don´t really know is how aggressively these laws were enforced between WWII (and maybe Korea) and Vietnam. Would people born in 1937-1942, i.e. too late for WWII and Korea and fairly late for Vietnam, in that they were then already primary breadwinners for families, have been drafted in peacetime? Did they need a good excuse to avoid the draft?

How would the draft impact someone in their late 20s/early 30s, anyway? Theoretically, Selective Service applied to men up to 45 or even in their 60s, at some point, I think, but I suspect that conscripting these men was not the practice.

Others have covered these points, but for someone born between 1937 and 1942 you most likely got drafted after high school or college. That would be anywhere from 1955 (born 1937, went in after high school) to 1964 (born 1942, got a deferment for college.) Only at the end would you be likely to see much risk. Unless you had a lot of deferments things would be settled by your late 20s.

Note that it was common to enlist in anticipation of a draft, both to have some control over how and where you served and to avoid wasting time waiting for the draft board. My dad was born in 1941 and enlisted in the Army out of college in 1963 with hopes of becoming an Army journalist (he was a journalist by trade) but was in for a very short time before they checked his eyesight and politely informed him they wouldn't need his services unless World War III broke out. I would say at the time avoiding service would have been considered dishonorable by most people, but that changed in later years.

How difficult it would be to avoid the draft depended on the time and place. I would say it's safe to assume someone well connected who wanted an exemption could get one though perhaps at a later cost in reputation. Note avoidance during the Vietnam War could include service in the National Guard which generally meant you wouldn't go to Vietnam. For example, the Texas Air National Guard had the 147th Group, nicknamed the Champagne Unit for the sons of the well connected who served in it.

And as others noted it was fairly common to be drafted and have a dull and quiet term of service.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Most common? Probably drinking beer in Germany.

Cool, thanks.

US Navy had a huge base in Okinawa, I know, with plenty of Marines stationed there. There were probably USAF facilities in Okinawa too and probably some small Army presence. Signals and so forth.

USAF was in Great Britain and Germany, that I recall. There was a Guam base, obviously, and they used Thailand for some missions connected with Vietnam.

The US base here in Iceland was small and had Marines and Navy SP personnel, mostly, apart from the USAF contigent that came with the F-15s. I think it was representive of a lot of small bases.

US Navy had a lot of bases in Italy. Naval bases in Philippines, South Korea, Japan proper, UK (I think, but mostly used RN facilities if they stopped by).

Where else than in Germany, CONUS and Vietnam were there large numbers of US Army soldiers stationed between 1955-1980? Did South Korea have a large US garrison between 1955 and Vietnam? Was it reduced dramatically during Vietnam?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

He would have graduated high school and turned 18 in 1963. This was before major escalation in Vietnam and the draft would not have been as high as it was c.65 and later. There was still the need for NATO troops in Europe.

Not being able to afford college tuition in 63 is kind of iffy.

https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/...t13_330.10.asp

The left side of this is in 2012-13 dollars but scroll over and you'll get the numbers in period dollars. Choose a "public" institution if bargain shopping and the numbers would be quite modest.

Don't forget that to be able to afford college, someone has to be able to afford no wages (or at least only wages for a part-time job) for the duration. They also have to be able to afford to live where there is a university, which for someone from the Saint John Valley of Aroostook County in Maine between 1950 to ca 1960, means moving to Houlton, Bangor or another of the larger towns in Maine.

Fort Kent offered schooling for teachers, but the current University of Maine - Fort Kent wasn't a state college until around 1965 and wasn't really a university with many degrees on offer until 1970, when it became part of the University of Maine. Presque Isle had another teacher's school, but again, not a state college until 1965 and didn't offer a lot of options for degrees until it became part of the University of Maine system in 1968.

In 1963, my NPC could have continued living with his parents and commuted to the Fort Kent Normal School, but only for a two-year teaching degree. He also had the option of a two-year associate degree at Northern Maine Community College in Presque Isle or a two-year teaching degree at The Aroostook State Teachers College, but it would be too far to commute and he'd have to move there.

He could also move to Houlton, for Ricker College, but that was a fairly exclusive and expensive institution (for the time). Finding work in Houlton would also be harder than doing it in Presque Isle. Then there would be the University of Maine, at Orono, which would probably be his best bet, but Orono isn't a big city and would not necessarily have any more part-time work for him than Houlton.

It's far from implausible to imagine him attenting Fort Kent Normal School, but not finishing a degree (as he never wanted to be a teacher) and then ending up without any draft deferment as he looks for a job.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Still, in 63 except for freefloating existential nuclear anxiety there would probably not have been that great a worry about military service.

Even for persons who did go to Vietnam later there were a lot of supply and personnel clerks there. I had a high school history teacher who pulled such service and the VC did shell the base he was stationed at multiple nights per week but it probably constituted psychological warfare more than serious combat. My teacher didn't take it personally and was rather blasé about it.

I can imagine a lot of reasons for not wanting to be forced to wear a uniform and obey orders for two years that do not have anything to do with danger.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Anyone who was driven by patriotism to serve in possible danger could join the Marines. They were all volunteer.

Indeed.

[Icelander]

I'm fairly used to stories featuring Native Americans in the American Colonies/United States between 1750 and 1890, with the setting moving progressively West during the first century and with most of the classic tales being set on the Great Plains, the Dakotas or on either side of the Mexican borderlands.

What I do not have is a good feel for 'civilised' Indians in the area of the original 13 colonies during the latter part of the 19th century. Nor do I know much about Native Americans or First Nation people for much of the 20th century.*

What I'm considering is the background of an NPC named Joseph Greybear. He was born in 1944, in Allagash, Aroostook County, Maine. At the time of play, he is therefore aged 44. He might not have an entirely commonplace background, in that he was born to a very old and eccentric Mi'kmaq, who avoided any settlement too large for him to be able to know everyone in it personally, and his eight or ninth wife, a pretty young Métis woman with Maliseet ancestry, from St. Francis, Aroostook County, Maine. I would like to avoid making his background farcical, rather than merely eccentric, however.

Greybear is also a veteran of the United States Marine Corps. His enlistment would have been for four years, he'd have enlisted fairly early in 1967 and been deployed 4-6 months later.

After his 6-month tour was done, he'd have offered to extend it to 13-months in exchange for the R&R benefits this brought. This means rotation back stateside in mid-1968 or so. While there, he and a corporal from his squad, who had both unofficially performed the role of sharpshooters and scouts for their company, were both offered a post in a Scout/Sniper platoon. Both of them volunteered to be deployed again despite the policy of a 2-year stateside post after a combat tour** and he was back in country in 1969, for another 13-month deployment.

I'm considering several questions:

a) How fluid was the border between the United States and Canada for Native Americans/First Nations people in the 19th century? Greybear's father was very old and lived between 1864-1958. Could the older Grey Bear have viewed the distinction between Canada and Maine as immaterial, having family on both sides? Or were there strict measures taken in the 19th century to prevent Mi'kmaq or Maliseet people from ignoring the border and being Canadian when it suited them and Mainians on other occasions?

b) I've read some stuff about the abuses of Canada in regard to the schooling of First Nations children. How plausible is it for someone who grew up in the 1870s and was an adult by 1882 to have escaped any form of formalised schooling in either Canada or Maine? If not very plausible, could he have learned to read and write from priests, but never actually attended one school for very long?

c) How plausible is it for Joseph Greybear to have been successfully kept from going to the Allagash Public School between 1950-1964? His father would have taught him to read and write, along with the necessaries of trapping, stalking and shooting, and only when his parent died did the local priest manage to have Joseph given some proper schooling, in a Catholic school in St. Francis.

d) How plausible is it for Greybear to have been able to extend his second tour even further than 13 months and/or to take a short R&R break and then immediately continue for another tour in 1971?***

e) What rank would be most likely hold after four years as a Marine? Exemplary soldier, highly valued observer in a Scout-Sniper Platoon, brilliant fieldcraft and good at teaching new Marines how to patrol, but in temperament always subservient to his older friend, also an enlisted Scout-Sniper, but most likely one rank higher.

*As regard modern Native Americans, in so far as they are distinct from other Americans, I've read books written by modern Native American historians and anthropologists, seen movies set on reservations and visited a reservation in Connecticut. Granted, said reservation was a giant casino and not very representative of anyone's culture, unless it represented our collective abnegation of culture.
**Which limited men with normal 3-4 year enlistments to only one combat tour unless they explicitly volunteered for more or were unlucky enough to belong to a unit with a messed-up deployment schedule or have an MOE which was deemed vital/scarce enough for this unofficial policy not to apply.
***He had originally enlisted because his best friend did. That best friend became transfered with him to the Scout-Sniper Platoon, became his Sergeant and usually worked with him as the bolt-action rifle sniper of their scout-sniper team. This best friend lost his brother in combat in 1968 and in 1969, he discovered that his other brother had gone AWOL in Thailand. Just before Christmas, 1970, the best friend's wife died of a stroke. At that time, the Sergeant should have gone home and taken care of his young son, but was psychologically unable to face going home after all these losses. Instead, he did all he could to remain in the combat zone, where he understood his duties, and left his son in the hands of his parents and in-laws. Greybear wouldn't want to leave his friend, even if he privately thought he was being stupid.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Icelander

US Navy had a huge base in Okinawa, I know, with plenty of Marines stationed there. There were probably USAF facilities in Okinawa too and probably some small Army presence. Signals and so forth.

USAF was in Great Britain and Germany, that I recall. There was a Guam base, obviously, and they used Thailand for some missions connected with Vietnam.

The US base here in Iceland was small and had Marines and Navy SP personnel, mostly, apart from the USAF contigent that came with the F-15s. I think it was representive of a lot of small bases.

The Iceland base was probably bigger in the 60s My Uncle pulled duty there and he was regular Navy (clerk mostly). Born and raised in Florida he was assigned to Iceland, Greenland and Alaska. At a guess they were supporting fleet supply and Naval aviation both for supply and ASW flights (P-3 Orion and similar) I think the DEW blimps flew untl 63.

A list of where the US did not have foreign bases in the 50s and 60s would be shorter and much simpler than a list of where they did.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The Iceland base was probably bigger in the 60s My Uncle pulled duty there and he was regular Navy (clerk mostly). Born and raised in Florida he was assigned to Iceland, Greenland and Alaska. At a guess they were supporting fleet supply and Naval aviation both for supply and ASW flights (P-3 Orion and similar) I think the DEW blimps flew untl 63.

Sure. I keep forgetting how big the base used to be. The base I knew was but a shadow of the 60s one.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

A list of where the US did not have foreign bases in the 50s and 60s would be shorter and much simpler than a list of where they did.

And a list I can find online. I was looking for an impression of where people who grew up in the 50s, 60s and 70s would have been sent, expected to be sent or ended up serving. Having a list of foreign bases doesn't really tell me how many draftees ended up serving in each, how long such service was, etc.

I get the impression tours of duty were reserved for combat zone assignments, but I don't know how long a typical posting for a 50s or early 60s draftee in Germany would be. I don't know if one foreign duty post was usually the limit. I also don't know if it was likely for a typical US Army draftee to serve in South Korea or Okinawa, rather than in Germany.

All these things are stuff many Americans would probably know off hand, for one because their fathers or uncles, grandfaters or great-uncles, might have served in these places.

[adm]

Korea has had a significant garrison force since the Korean war. Between the cool to cold weather, the constant incursions across the DMZ by the North Koreans, as well as their boat landings around the South Korean and Japanese coasts, it is considered to be a hardship posting, at least until roughly 2000. North Korea has always been a saber rattler, and Seoul would likely turn into a charnel house from the many North Korean artillery emplacements, particularly if chemical rounds are used.