[Melee] Pick V Axe

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Except that in order to offset the -6 penalty to targeting the chinks in armor, you only need to evaulate for two rounds and then making an all-out attack. While an Axe-user can do the same thing, in this isntance, his All-out attack still suffers fro mthe fact that it CANNOT penetrate armor. Thus, the Pick, in the hands of two warriors of the same skill, has an advantage against armored foes.

Ok, then AOA(Strong) with the axe vs our DR 8 opponent.

Axe goes from 1D+2 to 2D. with expectation 7. Since only attacks of 9 or more get through then its....

.28 * 7 = 1.96 * 1.5 (For Cutting) = 2.94

(1D+4 would get Axe slightly better at
.33 * 7.5 = 2.48 * 1.5 = 3.7 for the curious)


Pick is....

SW+1(2) Imp or 1d+2 (expectation 5.5) versus the DR of 4.

a roll of 3 or more gets through the DR so its
.67 * 5.5 = 3.69 * 2 (For the Impaling)


So its Pick 7.4 versus Axe 2.94 (or 3.7 depending on how you do the dice).

A signifigant difference, untill we realize that while Pick evaluated his first two turns, Axe could have just as well AOA(Strong) for those 2 turns.

Pick after 3 turns = 7.4
Axe After 3 Turns = 8.8

After 4 turns
Pick = 7.4 + 7.4*(.5 for half the damage)*(.63 for odds of a ST 11 making) = 9.7

Axe = 11.76

At this point we're starting to assume quite a bit over the course of 4 turns.

Nymdok

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

At this point we're starting to assume quite a bit over the course of 4 turns.

As well as ignoring to-hit rolls, which renders the analysis less than useful against resisting foes.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Icelander

As well as ignoring to-hit rolls, which renders the analysis less than useful against resisting foes.

Not so, possibilities include,

Foes susceptible to shock. If Axe only does 3-4 points of damage a turn, is that enough to lower the opponents probability of a hit?

Whats the opponents expectation DMG vs Axe's DR?

In other words, how effective are the defenders against our heroes?

At any rate, thats kind of my point.

Its difficult to determine outcomes over the course of four turns with out introuducing a slew of other variables. We saw how complicated it got just taking a quick look at Axe's second turn.

Nymdok

[Verjigorm]

If the axe-user AoA(strong) for one turn, the pick user can now use a Hook Manuever to unready the axe or Trip the Axe-User. The penalties of making All-out Attacks are quite major.

[tanniynim]

I think all this discussion points out that both weapons are fairly equivalent, just better for different situations.

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

If the axe-user AoA(strong) for one turn, the pick user can now use a Hook Manuever to unready the axe or Trip the Axe-User. ...

Up untill this point, I had considered them not as matched against each other, but against an opponent of DR=X where X was a variable we could adjust looking for the 'Sweet Spot' where its better to use a Pick than an Axe.

Either way your agrument still fails.

Pick uses the evaluate he had been building for Chink in Armor on a hook manuver. Next turn Axe gets up (or rereadies) while Pick begins evaluating again for his CIA shot.

Nymdok

[Nymdok]

Originally Posted by tanniynim

I think all this discussion points out that both weapons are fairly equivalent, just better for different situations.

No, it points out that Axe is a far better weapon for damgae dealt.

It points out that there is NO reason to take a Pick over an axe, other than style. THe Axe beats it across the board for all DRs in fights that dont end on the 1st turn.

Nymdok

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

No, it points out that Axe is a far better weapon for damgae dealt.

It points out that there is NO reason to take a Pick over an axe, other than style. THe Axe beats it across the board for all DRs in fights that dont end on the 1st turn.

Nymdok

Aren't fights that end (or become largely forgone conclusions) on the first meaningful hit the most important category of fights?

Yes, a pick is a less than ideal weapon if, after you hit someone with it, you have to yank it out and hit them again while they continue to fight effectively. I suggest killing people like that with bows, or better still siege engines.

Higher chance of ending the fight per swing before the first telling blow has been made sounds like a fine selling point to me.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Nymdok

No, it points out that Axe is a far better weapon for damgae dealt.

It points out that there is NO reason to take a Pick over an axe, other than style. THe Axe beats it across the board for all DRs in fights that dont end on the 1st turn.

Nymdok

Only in the vacuum that we're assuming there are no optional rules of anysort being utilized, and the two involved parties stand toe-to-toe whaling at each other. That's an idealized position where the stronger axe has the advantage. You are setting this up to be a cant-lose position for the Axe, based purely on it's greater damage dealing capabilities. We are also assuming that both parties are strong enough to use the Axe(ST 11), which takes away an advantage of the Pick: it's lower Min ST value. You are purposefulyl takign the LARGER, STRONGER weapon, and then saying: "it does more damage", well, of course it does.

Again, if you're using All-Out-Attack(Strong) you're subjecting yourself to a number of potential manuevers that can end a fight, just to break even with said pick-user or slightly excede him.

You are also ignoring the fact that numerous armors(not so much in basic) have different DRs against different damage types. The pick has the advantage there. I wouldn't be surprised in Low-Tech introduces a number of TL1-4 armors that have lower values against impaling than they do against cutting or crushing.

The one turn the Pick does inflict damage, it will do so at 1d+2 vs DR 4, meaning an average of 3 for that swing. On the off-chance that you roll a 5 or 6, you have now inflicted a Major Wound. Against the Vitals, the malus is only -1 to hit(and no defence to worry about from the Axe), and you can now inflict a major wound on a 4+, or over half the time you hit.

The axe can at most inflict a a major wound 1/36th of the time, while the pick can inflict a major wound 1/3rd of the time vs the torso, and 1/2 the time against the vitals. Given that any damage against the vitals triggers a knockdown check, and half of the wounds will inflict a MAJOR wound that brings about knockdown at -3, the pick is certainly very capable.

But what the hey, let's try this again, but with two ST 10 combatents, one usign a Small Axe(MinST 10, sw+1 cut) and a Pick. Now, these two weapons are evenly matched against each other, which one is superior?

[trooper6]

One of the other things I think is important in favor of the pick in certain situations is that on the second turn you get auto-damage that can't be defended against.

There are a lot of high-defense opponents out there. And not because of DR, but because they parry/dodge/block like a crazy person. The Pick, when it hits get's two guaranteed hits, the axe...may get that first and never get the second.

And vitals are great!

I'm in an arena tournament, I have low strength and I'm using a rapier. Other people are ST20 Ogres with Staves. I am way underpowered compared to the rest of them in terms of Damage per blow. But I am hard to hit, and I can go for the vitals...and you'd be surprised how that levels things out a bit. (Well...this one ogre is still giving me trouble...but I think I have a solution to that as well).