Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

So, that original post pre-dated all sorts of stuff.

Lost Hall of Tyr (2nd Edition) is 5E/Dragon Heresy so no conversion needed.

Actually the mention of 5e was mainly just to indicate 5e version of Forgotten Realms vs earlier versions say 4e version.

I'm not that familiar with forgotten realms, but the key bit for Lost Hall would be that the hall should be in some pretty fierce mountains, and that there should be a reasonable population center to act as Isfjall and a base of operations.

The place that says "put it here" to me is around Mirabar, but the need for large mountains says "Spine of the World" to me.

OK, thanks. I'll check into it.

[mlangsdorf]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I'd think if they start close in GURPS it would be really hard to get off a shot and if you miss you'd be dino food. At least if we're talking T-rex or Raptor or other big carnivor. Also if there's more than one, big problem.

I don't know how much DFRPG you have actually played, but I actually ran a group of four through parts of the Isle of Dread. And my experience was that tbrigg's Scout could reliably eye-shot a dinosaur every other second (or faster) at close range, or put bodkins into the vitals at the same rate at longer ranges. Normal dinosaurs that started more than 2 seconds of movement away died before they made contact. 3 velociraptors, starting 20 yards away, was 1 velociraptor when it made it to the half-ogre knight and he could handle it in a 1 on 1 fight.

Combat scales differently between GURPS and D&D. Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

Concur with Mark here...the only way "one tough monster" was viable when I was writing the Bestiary versus 250-point or higher parties was to purposefull design them that way. Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect. Extra actions via fiat or rapid strike or high skill to offset the action economy, etc.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Concur with Mark here...the only way "one tough monster" was viable when I was writing the Bestiary versus 250-point or higher parties was to purposefull design them that way. Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect. Extra actions via fiat or rapid strike or high skill to offset the action economy, etc.

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies. So for instance dragons do have nictating membrane. It doesn't make sense to me that it is as touch as the scaled skin armor on the body, but it does. I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking. Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks. Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic. Dragons also have magic so why haven't they developed special spells to protect their eyes/face/head? Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

Dragons in GURPS tend to have weaker ranged attacks than in D&D 5e or depicted in a lot of fantasy. Range is more limited and cone attacks aren't as wide spread and powerful.

For giants why not use shields? Why not use your arm to shield your eyes? Basically reducing Scouts to attacks of opportunity.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies.

These ideas would make a great Pyramid article.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies. So for instance dragons do have nictating membrane. It doesn't make sense to me that it is as touch as the scaled skin armor on the body, but it does. I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking. Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks. Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic. Dragons also have magic so why haven't they developed special spells to protect their eyes/face/head? Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

A couple of comments here:

(1) Nictitating membrane helps, but bodkin points are still pretty good at piercing DR 3-9.

(2) Spells like Missile Shield are also good, but cost a lot of energy to cast on SM +3-5 creatures (even if you are a SM +3-5 creature[1]), and meteoric iron arrows can still bypass these spells[2].

(3) In any case, this is the kind of thing Doug meant when he said he had to "purposefull[y] design" monsters to be "one tough monster." The point isn't that you can't have tough monsters; it's the fact that HP alone are not a sufficient defense unless you have hundreds of HP. A 500 HP godzilla is relatively immune to eyeshots. A 50 HP T-Rex is not.

[1] Unless the GM says otherwise, of course. A house rule that says something like "Subtract your own SM from the SM of creatures you cast Regular spells on for purposes of determining energy cost" would not be a bad thing. In fact I should probably make that one of my own house rules.

[2] Perhaps a better idea for a dragon would be an illusion spell to make its eyes appear to be higher or lower on its face than they actually are.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect.

There are other options, such as No Brain + Homogenous.

I've used 'offset eyes' on monsters, causing eye shots to be treated as face shots for damage purposes (it's a highly limited No Eyes or No Brain; either way it's probably not more than [2] and might just be a perk). For creatures with tiny brains like dinosaurs it's not not particularly unrealistic.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Anthony

There are other options, such as No Brain + Homogenous.

Doesn't Homogeneous include No Brain, per Exploits pg. 55? "Ignore all knockdown and wounding modifiers for hit location". It's No Eyes that you need to add on, to prevent DR bypassing and blinding.

[Evanm]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I don't know how DFRPG you actually played, but I actually ran a group of four through parts of the Isle of Dread. And my experience was that tbrigg's Scout could reliably eye-shot a dinosaur every other second (or faster) at close range, or put bodkins into the vitals at the same rate at longer ranges. Normal dinosaurs that started more than 2 seconds of movement away died before they made contact. 3 velociraptors, starting 20 yards away, was 1 velociraptor when it made it to the half-ogre knight and he could handle it in a 1 on 1 fight.

Combat scales differently between GURPS and D&D. Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

As someone from D&D interested in DFRPG, this is a bit of an eye-opener. How common is this in practice? It doesn't exactly sound that fun or realistic, even in "heroic reality".

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Evanm

As someone from D&D interested in DFRPG, this is a bit of an eye-opener. How common is this in practice? It doesn't exactly sound that fun or realistic, even in "heroic reality".

Opposable thumbs (and therefore ranged combat) are very good at defeating big dumb animals that aren't already in your face, especially if you're playing the equivalent of (guesstimate) 8th level characters. This is actually true in D&D 5E as well: keep your buddies at a safe distance while the Sharpshooter uses Expeditious Retreat or Longstrider or Haste to kill it.

However, this scenario isn't common in DFRPG in practice, in my experience these past six months since switching from 5E. One reason for this is:

1.) Indoor combats.

The timescale is such that indoor dungeons work better, so I don't feel bad about using indoor maps that have dungeons the size of an apartment building (e.g. 50 yards x 80 yards). In 5E I feel really awkward doing so because it's hard to explain why the whole dungeon doesn't become a single encounter: by the time three rounds (eighteen seconds) of combat have elapsed, dungeon inhabitants can have had time to realize something is happening and move 60 to 90 yards towards the sounds of trouble.

Even though movement speeds are more variable and can be much higher in DFRPG (4 mph to 50 mph) than in 5E (4 mph to usually no more than 12 mph), combat is so much quicker in DFRPG (often one to three seconds) that it feels more like a house clearing operation, just a couple of brief screams and then silence. Therefore I don't feel like an idiot GM by leaving the monsters in their various rooms, lurking in ambush or whatever. Therefore I run more small indoor adventures (vs. outdoor adventures with indoor spaces embedded in the battle map), and so killing things from a distance is harder in DFRPG than in 5E.

Another reason is:

2.) Opportunity cost to ranged specialization.

Range penalties in DFRPG are also tougher, and the rules are less favorable to kiting. One of the DF professions, the Scout, is specialized to such a degree that he can pull off amazing ranged kills anyway, but it makes it less of a no-brainer to build a ranged combatant/melee switch hitter. Rather, you have to specialize, and if you do you give up some fun stuff that Knights or Swashbucklers have in melee combat, which will be common indoors.

But the most important factor is:

3.) Lots of tough monsters are immune.

Many, many DFRPG monsters aren't particularly vulnerable to eyeshots anyway. Off the top of my head, trolls, black puddings, peshkali, and fire elementals either don't have heads, or don't care if you headshot them. (They might care a little if you put out both eyes but still won't die yet.) If you choose to specialize in headshots and eyeshots, you'll be relatively useless against a significant fraction of monsters, and it only takes one monster and some bad luck to kill you. (HP attrition is less of a factor than in 5E.)

Conclusion: I think you'll be happy with the balance between melee/ranged/spells in DFRPG, and the fun of being attacked by various monsters. I have been.