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Old 02-01-2018, 11:14 PM   #11
Ashtagon
 
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

Isn't this an example of what ethnic cool was written for?
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Old 02-01-2018, 11:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

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Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
Isn't this an example of what ethnic cool was written for?
"Ethnic Cool" is just a term GURPS uses for being really generous with the stats for a specific weapon. Valyrian steel is a material, you can make a katana or a kukri or a zweihander out of it.
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:07 AM   #13
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

I'm not sure Valaryian steel is that amazing, it does however have a specific advantage when it comes to white walkers (but I always got the impression that was a lucky coincidence). Id say it's expense and rarity comes more from the fact it's almost lost technique/knowledge.

IIRC Tywin manages to have access (at great expense) to a smith who can work with existing examples but not create it from scratch. I was never quite sure how that worked since the smith in question turns one big sword into two smaller swords?!

In TL3-4 I'd make it superfine and just ramp up the cost / availability

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Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
Isn't this an example of what ethnic cool was written for?
I think that's thematically a good way to do it (just make it an ethnic cool material/manufacture process)

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Originally Posted by Sindri View Post
"Ethnic Cool" is just a term GURPS uses for being really generous with the stats for a specific weapon. Valyrian steel is a material, you can make a katana or a kukri or a zweihander out of it.
True but you could just say weapons made of it upgrade to Ethnic cool. Historically all kinds of amazing qualities was attributed to "Damascus steel" (not that Damascus steel was completely ordinary, but stories have a habit of growing)
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Old 02-02-2018, 12:29 AM   #14
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
IIRC Tywin manages to have access (at great expense) to a smith who can work with existing examples but not create it from scratch. I was never quite sure how that worked since the smith in question turns one big sword into two smaller swords?!
There's a number of people in the setting who can reforge pre-existing valyrian steel material into other shapes but don't know the magic tricks to forge the stuff in the first place. The big sword is just large enough to provide enough material for two smaller ones.

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True but you could just say weapons made of it upgrade to Ethnic cool. Historically all kinds of amazing qualities was attributed to "Damascus steel" (not that Damascus steel was completely ordinary, but stories have a habit of growing)
Ethnic Cool doesn't mean anything. It has different results depending on the weapon, and there aren't enough examples to give even basic coverage of standard sword varieties. Nor are the effects appropriate. Valyrian steel has consistent effects regardless of the form its used in, it doesn't make some things into fencing weapons and others better at targeting the vitals.
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Old 02-02-2018, 02:42 AM   #15
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

Couple of notes.

First, the 'random' Valyrian steel dagger was stolen from the personal collection of the King of the Seven Kingdoms, who rules an area about the size of South America, with, judging from the size of the armies, a population in excess of 100 million people.

Yes, from seizing the property of rebellious nobles and the 'gifts' he receives from fearful/favour-currying houses, King Robert has a ridiculous number of extremely valuable objects he doesn't use regularly. No, this doesn't mean that anyone else in the world is likely to have quite such an abundance of cherished heirlooms in his personal possession.

Second, it's mentioned enough times that where even a steel sword of high quality, made by renowned smiths, are unable to penetrate the armour of knights, Valyrian steel blade can not only pierce mail and plate, but actually cut through it. This makes a swordsman with such a blade a much greater threat than one wielding a conventional weapon.

So, I'd count them as more than Very Fine. Superfine and Balanced should do it.
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Old 02-02-2018, 03:46 AM   #16
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

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There's a number of people in the setting who can reforge pre-existing valyrian steel material into other shapes but don't know the magic tricks to forge the stuff in the first place. The big sword is just large enough to provide enough material for two smaller ones.
Well I guess one of the benefits of this kind of steel is being able to do that and not loose the properties that makes it special in other area's. (I don't know that much about making swords but I know making two steel swords out of an one larger one is going to be a bit involved).



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Ethnic Cool doesn't mean anything. It has different results depending on the weapon, and there aren't enough examples to give even basic coverage of standard sword varieties. Nor are the effects appropriate. Valyrian steel has consistent effects regardless of the form its used in, it doesn't make some things into fencing weapons and others better at targeting the vitals.
TBH I don't think Valyrian steel does have consistent effects across all weapons*? Certainly not to the point where you can say it translates to a specific set bonuses in GURPS in all cases (well beyond the effect on white walkers). I think using it as an excuse to up the weapons stat line in what ever fit's the campaign is about right.

If you look at those ethnic cool weapons they're just basically better versions of the underlying weapon anyway.

As I initially said make it superfine and have done. The point about "Ethnic cool" is really just more about the theme of mystique and accessibility.


*honestly I had a look there seems to be generally "It's sharp", and "it's light" when it comes to bigger swords. So yeah adding 0F and a point or two of damage seems about right

Last edited by Tomsdad; 02-02-2018 at 04:05 AM.
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Old 02-02-2018, 04:04 AM   #17
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

One other thought, if you use Douglas Cole's "The Broken Blade" (Pyramid 3/87), I certainly think they could qualify for some bonuses there!
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Old 02-02-2018, 06:23 AM   #18
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

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Couple of notes.

First, the 'random' Valyrian steel dagger was stolen from the personal collection of the King of the Seven Kingdoms, who rules an area about the size of South America, with, judging from the size of the armies, a population in excess of 100 million people.

Yes, from seizing the property of rebellious nobles and the 'gifts' he receives from fearful/favour-currying houses, King Robert has a ridiculous number of extremely valuable objects he doesn't use regularly. No, this doesn't mean that anyone else in the world is likely to have quite such an abundance of cherished heirlooms in his personal possession.
Sure, but the dagger still hasn't been handed off to high ranking houses that are unhappy that they don't have some kind of valyrian cutlery, is seen as okay to throw away on an assassination mission that doesn't involve a surprise stab on the battlefield, and can't immediately be traced by process of exclusion to either be one of the king's collection or a rare discovery of a new valyrian weapon in some attic.

That's not to say that it proves valyrian steel isn't rare, but it does give you a bit of range depending on which parts of the source material you want to emphasize. Likewise, there's the issue of where certain rare maesters are getting the valyrian steel to forge their links if the nobility is guarding the stuff too jealously.

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Well I guess one of the benefits of this kind of steel is being able to do that and not loose the properties that makes it special in other area's. (I don't know that much about making swords but I know making two steel swords out of an one larger one is going to be a bit involved).
Not really... Its pointlessly involved compared to just making a larger one to begin with normally but there's nothing special about it.

What is interesting is that reforgeability is apparently it isn't an automatic property of the metal. That is, there's a certain level of forge-like conditions that will de-valyrian a sword.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
TBH I don't think Valyrian steel does have consistent effects across all weapons*? Certainly not to the point where you can say it translates to a specific set bonuses in GURPS in all cases (well beyond the effect on white walkers). I think using it as an excuse to up the weapons stat line in what ever fit's the campaign is about right.

If you look at those ethnic cool weapons they're just basically better versions of the underlying weapon anyway.

As I initially said make it superfine and have done. The point about "Ethnic cool" is really just more about the theme of mystique and accessibility.


*honestly I had a look there seems to be generally "It's sharp", and "it's light" when it comes to bigger swords. So yeah adding 0F and a point or two of damage seems about right
OF course it has a consistent effect. Its standard fantasy metal bonuses, but people are not using it to make especially dense blunt weapons or self-igniting blades or whatever.

Its completely inappropriate for it to add fencing parry. ASOIAF is a setting where fencing vs not-fencing is a relevant distinction and the point of adding fencing parry to the legendary katana or zweihander is to erase distinctions and make them outcompete the jian or edged rapier on its own territory.

A bonus to target the vitals is even less appropriate, since it doesn't have anything to do with valyrian steel.

And Ethnic Cool is just not the option for accessibility. There isn't even a single Ethnic Cool weapon that uses broadsword.
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Old 02-02-2018, 07:06 AM   #19
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

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...


Not really... Its pointlessly involved compared to just making a larger one to begin with normally but there's nothing special about it.
Nothing special about melting down one larger steel sword and creating two seperate swords out it (and keeping the properties of the metal)? I'd say that's pretty special.

Now if the properties are not effected by such a process than yeah sure.

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What is interesting is that reforgeability is apparently it isn't an automatic property of the metal. That is, there's a certain level of forge-like conditions that will de-valyrian a sword.
Yep that was my point there's obviously something particular to the stuff that makes creating it in the first place one thing (and a now lost thing), but being able to maintain it's properties while turning a great word of it into two broadswords of it is another thing (albeit still a rarefied thing).

To be fair maybe it not actually steel or very steel like



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OF course it has a consistent effect. Its standard fantasy metal bonuses, but people are not using it to make especially dense blunt weapons or self-igniting blades or whatever.
I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said or how it's depicted in the setting?

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Its completely inappropriate for it to add fencing parry. ASOIAF is a setting where fencing vs not-fencing is a relevant distinction and the point of adding fencing parry to the legendary katana or zweihander is to erase distinctions and make them outcompete the jian or edged rapier on its own territory..
Fencing parry is just special effect in the GURPS system used to distinguish weapons with a specific set of characteristics (and the in setting some descriptions of VS would seem at time to match that, but again those descriptions are not exactly consistent). I don't think it's some forbidden line you can't cross in the ASOIAF setting.

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A bonus to target the vitals is even less appropriate, since it doesn't have anything to do with valyrian steel.
I'm not sure how that has come out of what I posted?

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And Ethnic Cool is just not the option for accessibility.
Why not, as I said originally I think thematically "this legendary cool thing that has all sorts of effects attributed to but is limited to some specific (and now defunct) culture so we only have what's left seem pretty in keeping?

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There isn't even a single Ethnic Cool weapon that uses broadsword.
I'm not sure the relevance here, you seem to be saying that unless it's a Katana, Welsh Longbow, Zweihander, Zambato or Francisa*, it can't be "ethnic cool"?

To me ethnic cool is just an add on / lens?



*is that all of them?

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Old 02-02-2018, 07:19 AM   #20
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Default Re: So... how to model certain weapons from a popular TV show

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Nothing special about melting down one larger steel sword and creating two seperate swords out it (and keeping the properties of the metal)? I'd say that's pretty special.
Who said anything about melting down? That's not forging, that's smelting. Forging involves heat and a LOT of hammering. Occasionally chisels to go with the hammers. You just heat up the metal until it's soft enough to chisel into two pieces, and then you use heat and hammer to reshape it.

Swords into plowshares never requires you to make a puddle of metal, it just requires heat, hammering, folding, hammering, heat, hammering, and liberal amounts of flux for forge-welding (which is really just more heat and hammering).

Watching a smith at work makes you appreciate why it was regarded as a magical art, but that's because metal is freaky in letting you do this sort of thing to it.

If you watch Forged In Fire, you can regularly catch smiths stuck with the job of making a sword or knife or hatchet or whatever out of a piece of car, a lawnmower, a bunch of ball bearings, or some other inconvenient thing. They are smiths, they do not smelt. They only hammer.
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