What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones?

RedMattis · 09-23-2020, 07:18 AM

What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones? You know, the one-shot powerstones from GURPS Magic?

Perhaps something like Energy Reserves + Affect Others would be the most fair method? It would set a hard limit on the number they can make, but unlimited abilities are kinda tricky otherwise.

Anders · 09-23-2020, 08:21 AM

I think I would call it "Meditative Magic" and let it be a perk. Then I would require them to either a) let them put existing points into an Energy Reserve with Gadget limitations, or b) let them meditate for 200 hours for each point.

Plane · 09-23-2020, 08:37 AM

Affliction (Malediction+100%; Magical -10%; I'mPowerstone+30%; Cumulative +400%)

w/ I guess "different attribute roll +20%" to switch will to IQ for attacker, and another +20% to switch HT to will for target.
never really understood why Affliction needs to have special rules for Malediction, subbing Will v Will for attack v defend seems pretty straightforward point value: could just apply that on top of the usual unopposed HT roll, (TWO resistance rolls, one opposed, one not) which gets rid of the problem of people always using malediction to overcome that HT roll via a quick contest rather than buying up Affliction levels to get -1 penalties to the HT roll: why vast majority of stuff only ever uses Affliction 1. Malediction would still be useful of course since it ignores DR which adds to the HT roll.

I'mPowerstone = ER 1 [3] w/ Affects Others +50%, Mana-Sensitive -10% and Slow Recharge (1 per day) -60%. It's energy cannot recharge or be access in No Mana, and 1/day becoming 1/week in Low Mana seems like a reasonable substitute for the -5 to rolls.

The 24 hour period for normally getting 1 FP back becoming 12 hours in High or 6 hours in Very High seems like a fair tradeoff for lacking the usual benefits which Mana-Sensitive imparts to other abilities, such as getting back FP spent on abilities the very next second if used in VH mana.

Where we face trouble is emulating some of the unique aspects of Powerstone/Manastone. For example:
1) if a previous use failed on you then the next fail makes you immune to the affliction
2) fails cause quirks
3) crit fails cause explode

That's the major balance problem here: since when should an attack FAILING cause it's target (rather than the user) to suffer problems/death?

We see that problem with healing spells too: failures can actually cause damage to the person you're trying to heal, so intentionally failing a healing spell is actually something you could do to try and cause damage more easily than an actual attack spell.

A lot of 'outside intended' use stuff like this is possible with magic.

For example: since Regular Spells can target unseen foes, and since a critical success costs 0 energy, you can actually use them to detect if a foe is around by specifying them and your spell ending up spending no energy.

There's also a degree of that even without a critical success: since normal failures only cost 1 energy while normal successes and crit fails cost full energy: if you cast the spell and it only uses up 1 energy, then you know the target is probably not closeby, since range penalties from him being miles off probably caused it to fail.

At the same time, you know he can't be THAT far off, or you would've crit failed and expended FULL energy.

You can tell apart successful castings and crit fails (both of which use full energy costs) by whether or not something from the crit fail table happens.

Unstable Magery is bad at this: since there's a high chance of normal fails turning into crit fails.

In Wild Mana (all normal pass/fail is crit) this is even easier: 0 energy means your spell passed (they're close enough that -1 per yard didn't cause failure) while full energy means your spell failed (they're far away enough to make you fail).

This means you don't really need specialized Knowledge spells to detect people at all, so long as you can specify them by some means and cast a Regular spell at them.

It's better since unlike Knowledge spells there isn't any special rule where normal fails use full cost. Although I don't see the point: "no information" still seems like "I know it failed" so they're probably not nearby".

This only really helps in determining nearness though (the -1 per yard) like "detect X". Actual knowledge spells can give more info than "X is nearby" and are useful for that

Anaraxes · 09-23-2020, 08:51 AM

Are the manastones supposed to be physical objects? Among other important factors, can the creator have more than one of them in existence at the same time? Can a single character carry more than one manastone? How many can they use at the same time? (One? All they're carrying at once?) The answers will affect the details of exactly how you build the Energy Reserve that acts as the manastone.

To match a manastone, I wouldn't worry about the ER recharge rate, but rather just buy the EP/FP as a one-use-only ability at 1/5 cost. Manastones aren't reusable.

Do you also want to emulate the day-long enchanting time to create one? (If not, and multiple stones can be created, keep in mind that the character can just crank them out as fast as they can recharge energy in their downtime. So imagine what happens to the game when a player expects to have a Bag of Holding with a thousand free manastones in it.)

Plane · 09-23-2020, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Are the manastones supposed to be physical objects?

I got impression Mattis wants to emulate the spell as closely as possible via sorcery but forgot that sorcery makes regular use of affliction.

I think when afflicting you need something to be a thing. I can grant DR or Injury Tolerance to a pebble or even a water molecule which but not "fixed point in space".

You can make changes in space w/ stuff like Obscure or Mana Enhancer... the first begins as AE so I'll work with second...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Among other important factors, can the creator have more than one of them in existence at the same time?

Mattis talked about having ER be the root advantage which is a problem since that would allow the caster to tap the ER in addition to whoever they share it with.

My approach is you afflict always-on affects others to an object, this causes the 1st one to touch the object have ER shared with them.

If you don't want this to apply to non mages you could add a further limitation to the affects others enhancement: accessibility: mages only. This would mean that it only "always ons" the "affects others" in response to a mage but not to a non-mage.

Affects Others is also a problem because it is voluntary and manastones aren't sentient (unless you put a spirit in them) so they can't pick and choose who uses them.

So this would probably be like having "Always On Affects Others" as a limited enhancement on the ER.

Can a single character carry more than one manastone? How many can they use at the same time? (One? All they're carrying at once?) The answers will affect the details of exactly how you build the Energy Reserve that acts as the manastone.

To match a manastone, I wouldn't worry about the ER recharge rate, but rather just buy the EP/FP as a one-use-only ability at 1/5 cost. Manastones aren't reusable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Do you also want to emulate the day-long enchanting time to create one? (If not, and multiple stones can be created, keep in mind that the character can just crank them out as fast as they can recharge energy in their downtime.

If we use the large basic cost on affliction (Costs Fatigue 20 = -200%) and the time (immediate preparation required: 1 hour) we could emulate how that is normally done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

So imagine what happens to the game when a player expects to have a Bag of Holding with a thousand free manastones in it.)

The fun thing is we need no special rule to emulate the "can only use 1 stone at a time" function, this is apparently how it already works if you have access to several Energy Reserves, per the Improved Zombie that Kromm included in Necromantic tools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedMattis

It would set a hard limit on the number they can make,
but unlimited abilities are kinda tricky otherwise.

Easy to do with Affliction. You just need to add increased duration: Permanent +300% which I forgot to do.

Guess that's what the -200% will help pay for

WingedKagouti · 09-23-2020, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedMattis

You know, the one-shot powerstones from GURPS Magic?

If you want to preserve the One Use Only aspect of Manastones, take a look at Favor for how to price the ER portion of the Affliction. I've seen it used for similar purposes on the forum before, so while I couldn't find an example with a quick search I wouldn't be against using it for this scenario.

Anthony · 09-23-2020, 12:20 PM

My general rule for creating items of value (manastones seems to apply) is that you can spend 1 point to be able to treat any activity as a job of your wealth level, and you can accept payment in kind in place of wages, giving you a discount of 33-50%. If the crafting requires materials, only your value added is subject to this discount. Thus, a TL 3 average wealth job is $700/mo or about $33/day, so you can create $33 worth of manastones per day.

Plane · 09-23-2020, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WingedKagouti

If you want to preserve the One Use Only aspect of Manastones,
take a look at Favor for how to price the ER portion of the Affliction. I've seen it used for similar purposes on the forum before, so while I couldn't find an example with a quick search I wouldn't be against using it for this scenario.

Never noticed Favor before... B55 mentions you don't lose it if you fail the Frequency of Appearance roll.

Makes me think about how this might compare to CP-powered abilities (Impulse Buys 13) which also makes it 1/5 cost.

In that case you CAN use it multiple times, but it costs CP each time. That's an interesting way to emulate how Vampiric Immortality worked in 3e when using Unkillable 2 or 3 (it used to make you -25 character points per use, like a reusable "extra life").

In this case it's not quite so dramatic - can vary from 1 to 5 (depending on GM evaluation of RP stuff)

In the case of Favor you're losing 1/5 the value of the root ability in character points (rounding up so minimum 1) so it could be cheaper than paying 2-5 points in bad-RP situations for CP-powered advantages... for social advantages worth 5 points or less. For social advantages worth 25+ base cost using CP-powered seems better.

maybe in that case you pay per attempt to roll on FOA though

RedMattis · 09-23-2020, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony

My general rule for creating items of value (manastones seems to apply) is that you can spend 1 point to be able to treat any activity as a job of your wealth level, and you can accept payment in kind in place of wages, giving you a discount of 33-50%. If the crafting requires materials, only your value added is subject to this discount. Thus, a TL 3 average wealth job is $700/mo or about $33/day, so you can create $33 worth of manastones per day.

Interesting. I'm guessing you're using that as a non-leveled perk, right? Or perhaps you're basing it on `independent income` if you want to scale it?

Anyway, in this case I think I mostly want the "manastones" to work short term. Perhaps he can make a dozen 3FP manastones in his down-time when travelling or whatever. But the manastones would break down after awhile if separated from him, and would prevent him from having more than a dozen at any time. The "manastones" would also just be crystallized magic, so they don't use any physical regent.

I mostly intend to have them used them for spells (his or other mages), or as explosive grenades (which is just built as an innate attack with a limitation).

They aren't intended to be sold, and other mages should be able to identify them as a transitory item.

RedMattis · 09-23-2020, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plane

To match a manastone, I wouldn't worry about the ER recharge rate, but rather just buy the EP/FP as a one-use-only ability at 1/5 cost. Manastones aren't reusable.

The intention is for the character to make a bunch of them with relatively little down-time. It is no doubt a powerful ability, and mostly limited by the fact that he has a "soft-cap" on the number he can have. (They probably decay faster if he carries lots)

They are meant to be quite disposable for him.

In this case it is actually an NPC, but since it is likely the players will drag him along based on how the plot is going, and chances are the players will want to learn to use his ability, or create new characters able to do what he does. His ability is meant to be somewhat unusual but not so much that there isn't a bunch of other mages that do the exact same thing, or their own variations thereof.

09-23-2020, 07:18 AM	#1
RedMattis Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sweden, Stockholm	What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones? What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones? You know, the one-shot powerstones from GURPS Magic? Perhaps something like Energy Reserves + Affect Others would be the most fair method? It would set a hard limit on the number they can make, but unlimited abilities are kinda tricky otherwise. __________________ "Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes, no calamity need be feared"

09-23-2020, 08:21 AM	#2
Anders Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden	Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones? I think I would call it "Meditative Magic" and let it be a perk. Then I would require them to either a) let them put existing points into an Energy Reserve with Gadget limitations, or b) let them meditate for 200 hours for each point. __________________ “When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius

09-23-2020, 08:37 AM	#3
Plane Join Date: Aug 2018	Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones? Affliction (Malediction+100%; Magical -10%; I'mPowerstone+30%; Cumulative +400%) w/ I guess "different attribute roll +20%" to switch will to IQ for attacker, and another +20% to switch HT to will for target. never really understood why Affliction needs to have special rules for Malediction, subbing Will v Will for attack v defend seems pretty straightforward point value: could just apply that on top of the usual unopposed HT roll, (TWO resistance rolls, one opposed, one not) which gets rid of the problem of people always using malediction to overcome that HT roll via a quick contest rather than buying up Affliction levels to get -1 penalties to the HT roll: why vast majority of stuff only ever uses Affliction 1. Malediction would still be useful of course since it ignores DR which adds to the HT roll. I'mPowerstone = ER 1 [3] w/ Affects Others +50%, Mana-Sensitive -10% and Slow Recharge (1 per day) -60%. It's energy cannot recharge or be access in No Mana, and 1/day becoming 1/week in Low Mana seems like a reasonable substitute for the -5 to rolls. The 24 hour period for normally getting 1 FP back becoming 12 hours in High or 6 hours in Very High seems like a fair tradeoff for lacking the usual benefits which Mana-Sensitive imparts to other abilities, such as getting back FP spent on abilities the very next second if used in VH mana. Where we face trouble is emulating some of the unique aspects of Powerstone/Manastone. For example: 1) if a previous use failed on you then the next fail makes you immune to the affliction 2) fails cause quirks 3) crit fails cause explode That's the major balance problem here: since when should an attack FAILING cause it's target (rather than the user) to suffer problems/death? We see that problem with healing spells too: failures can actually cause damage to the person you're trying to heal, so intentionally failing a healing spell is actually something you could do to try and cause damage more easily than an actual attack spell. A lot of 'outside intended' use stuff like this is possible with magic. For example: since Regular Spells can target unseen foes, and since a critical success costs 0 energy, you can actually use them to detect if a foe is around by specifying them and your spell ending up spending no energy. There's also a degree of that even without a critical success: since normal failures only cost 1 energy while normal successes and crit fails cost full energy: if you cast the spell and it only uses up 1 energy, then you know the target is probably not closeby, since range penalties from him being miles off probably caused it to fail. At the same time, you know he can't be THAT far off, or you would've crit failed and expended FULL energy. You can tell apart successful castings and crit fails (both of which use full energy costs) by whether or not something from the crit fail table happens. Unstable Magery is bad at this: since there's a high chance of normal fails turning into crit fails. In Wild Mana (all normal pass/fail is crit) this is even easier: 0 energy means your spell passed (they're close enough that -1 per yard didn't cause failure) while full energy means your spell failed (they're far away enough to make you fail). This means you don't really need specialized Knowledge spells to detect people at all, so long as you can specify them by some means and cast a Regular spell at them. It's better since unlike Knowledge spells there isn't any special rule where normal fails use full cost. Although I don't see the point: "no information" still seems like "I know it failed" so they're probably not nearby". This only really helps in determining nearness though (the -1 per yard) like "detect X". Actual knowledge spells can give more info than "X is nearby" and are useful for that Last edited by Plane; 09-23-2020 at 08:41 AM.

09-23-2020, 08:51 AM	#4
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones? Are the manastones supposed to be physical objects? Among other important factors, can the creator have more than one of them in existence at the same time? Can a single character carry more than one manastone? How many can they use at the same time? (One? All they're carrying at once?) The answers will affect the details of exactly how you build the Energy Reserve that acts as the manastone. To match a manastone, I wouldn't worry about the ER recharge rate, but rather just buy the EP/FP as a one-use-only ability at 1/5 cost. Manastones aren't reusable. Do you also want to emulate the day-long enchanting time to create one? (If not, and multiple stones can be created, keep in mind that the character can just crank them out as fast as they can recharge energy in their downtime. So imagine what happens to the game when a player expects to have a Bag of Holding with a thousand free manastones in it.)

09-23-2020, 12:20 PM	#7
Anthony Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Berkeley, CA	Re: What point value would you give to an advantage which lets you create manastones? My general rule for creating items of value (manastones seems to apply) is that you can spend 1 point to be able to treat any activity as a job of your wealth level, and you can accept payment in kind in place of wages, giving you a discount of 33-50%. If the crafting requires materials, only your value added is subject to this discount. Thus, a TL 3 average wealth job is $700/mo or about $33/day, so you can create $33 worth of manastones per day. __________________ My GURPS site and Blog.