Pounce and Damage to Attacker

[InexplicableVic]

I think this was partially covered, but not fully answered (I skimmed the post) in an earlier GURPS forum thread. But it's worth revisiting, I think.


Using a Humongous Spider (ST 19) to pounce, wouldn't it do significant damage to itself even if successful (looking at at least 2d+2 or more, depending upon the length of the pounce)? I know it gets a free grapple afterwards if it knocks down its prey, but it seems like an overall bad deal if it does a major wound to itself in pouncing.



Or am I just reading this (in conjunction with slams) wrong? Is the "damage contest" only for purposes of determining knockdown, and not actual damage?

[Anthony]

Damage to the attacker is based on the ST of the target. It works perfectly well to pounce on characters with low ST.

[InexplicableVic]

Yeah, I suppose that's the way to go for the spider. With DR 3, attacking someone with ST 10 isn't that bad. But with a long pounce (if this Humongous Spider has Super Jump, for example), it adds +3 damage per die at 7+ yards, and that's 1d+1 damage to the spider--not going to kill the spider, to be sure, but it's still probably going to hurt even going after the weakest delver. Against a ST 15 knight, or a ST 17 barbarian, at least 2-3 damage is guaranteed with a long pounce (same example now does 1d+4 or 1d+5 to the spider, respectively).

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Spartan506

Yeah, I suppose that's the way to go for the spider. With DR 3, attacking someone with ST 10 isn't that bad. But with a long pounce (if this Humongous Spider has Super Jump, for example), it adds +3 damage per die at 7+ yards, and that's 1d+1 damage to the spider

1d-1; slam damage starts at Thrust-2.

[Dalin]

Meh. After reviewing the pounce rules, I'm pretty sure I'm going to pretend that I never saw them. I figure pouncing is a special ability that beasties have that allow them to safely jump on tasty PCs. I've never once had a player argue that this was unrealistic during a game. In special situations, of course, I might adjust things (spiky armor, magical zapping field, etc.), but it's simply Not Fun if the giant spider knocks itself out every time it goes out hunting.

Admittedly, not RAW.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Dalin

Admittedly, not RAW.

My method of handling this:

Also I double the Pouncer's damage for purposes of Knockback. That combined with most monster's DR and pouncing the weak Character's first is usually enough to keep a more fragile thing like a Hugemungous Spider up.

And if not, then that's what it get's for pouncing the party Barbarian!

[Polkageist]

I ran into the same issue with 'dang, slam attacks can really hurt!' when using some dire wolves as some monsters attacking the party.

I noted that the damage increases from an all-out attack, super jump, etc. is added to the slammer's (wolf's) damage dealt, not the victim's, thus off-setting the whole self-damage and knock-down problem to pretty good odds in favor of the wolf. I also gave them a touch of DR and a heap of HP. So, just building a critter to be a 'pouncer' helped out, and target choice made a difference. That is, don't pounce on the thing what hurts, it's good for getting to and taking down soft targets (die, wizard!), but adding an extra point of DR or two probably won't break things. Also, with 19 HP (round up to 20), trading a few HP for a big advantage at the opening of the fight is totally worthwhile.

The other thing I did was getting out from the stuck in the 'slam' part of the attack. Martial Arts has a note about flying attacks and techniques to improve those. Which means for your spiders, maybe don't think of it as them throwing themselves at their prey intending that the impact of their mass be the damage dealer, but rather their "attack" is a movement followed by an attack. So, move/jump through the air and then grapple/sweep/fang strike/claw/whatever.

But you're kinda right about it being a special ability that some beasties can just 'do' and you can model it by putting together a custom technique. Martial Arts has guidance on creating new techniques, and I'd maybe do something along the lines of a flying jump kick that's a 'flying jump sweep' to do a damage-less one-shot takedown. So that non-RAW you're worried about is just a specialized technique that gets the effect you need. Since it's a monster, you don't even have to worry about points, just balance.

Spider-tackle (14): Spider moves X yards and then rolls against this skill. On a success, target is knocked prone. On a miss, (consequences).

easy peasy

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Polkageist

The other thing I did was getting out from the stuck in the 'slam' part of the attack. Martial Arts has a note about flying attacks and techniques to improve those. Which means for your spiders, maybe don't think of it as them throwing themselves at their prey intending that the impact of their mass be the damage dealer, but rather their "attack" is a movement followed by an attack. So, move/jump through the air and then grapple/sweep/fang strike/claw/whatever.

Not bad. I kinda did this with Deadly Pounce for Pyramid #3/111 Combat, Animal Combat Styles with the Deadly Pounce Technique.
Its a Pounce combo followed by a grapple.

[Anthony]

There's something to be said for tossing the whole concept of the target rolling, and instead a slam is just a double knockback attack with normal unarmed combat 'damage self' hazards.

[Polkageist]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Not bad. I kinda did this with Deadly Pounce for Pyramid #3/111 Combat, Animal Combat Styles with the Deadly Pounce Technique.
Its a Pounce combo followed by a grapple.

I don't have the article, but I'm guessing that has a lot of info about point costs of the techniques for allies/companions? That's dead useful, animal companions are great though can get nutty. A friend had a cyborg dog companion in a game and it was wild. It didn't cause too much problems, he was game to play along and not break things, and it was the first-ish time I was dealing with companions like that.

I think the freedom of having the beast behind the GM veil means that you can just assign a skill level value and a series of effects without worrying about points and such. However, it's still probably as simple as picking a baseline skill to start with and giving it a Hard+ rating and a sensible default value.