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Old 11-11-2008, 09:30 AM   #31
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icelander
If you had a choice, what would you prefer to see first:

a) Nordic knarr, longboat, dragon ship and great drakkar.
b) Caravel, caravel redonda and a later vessel built in the same style purely for warfare.
c) Early frigates and small galleons.
d) Early cogs, Hanseatic cogs and cogs designed for warfare.
e) Carracks and great ships.
f) Brigantines, pinnaces, brigs and snow-brigs.
g) Schooners, xebecs and xebec-frigates.
h) Cutters, corvettes and sloops-of-war.
j) Frigates and ships-of-the-line.
Well, you've already done A and D (good work on those), as well as a few Galleons, so I'd like to see B, C, E, and J. Someone else mentioned Galleys, which are also something I'd like to see. No rush, though.

Out of curiosity, what are your feelings toward the various cannon listed in Fantasy? Valid, or poorly calculated?
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:40 AM   #32
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031
Well, you've already done A and D (good work on those), as well as a few Galleons, so I'd like to see B, C, E, and J. Someone else mentioned Galleys, which are also something I'd like to see. No rush, though.
You're in luck, as noted above. Holks are next (a continuation of the Cog type, as far as history is concerned, even though it's not a linear technological advancement), then it's E and then B and C.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbrock1031
Out of curiosity, what are your feelings toward the various cannon listed in Fantasy? Valid, or poorly calculated?
I haven't run the numbers yet. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to, since Kromm is editing David Pulver's Mass Combat and we might be more artillery stats therein.

A quick look suggests that the stats in Fantasy probably assume less powerful serpentine gunpowder. That means they might be accurate until the late 16th century, but after that, would need a boost in power.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:58 AM   #33
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

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Originally Posted by Icelander
I haven't run the numbers yet. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to, since Kromm is editing David Pulver's Mass Combat and we might be more artillery stats therein.

A quick look suggests that the stats in Fantasy probably assume less powerful serpentine gunpowder. That means they might be accurate until the late 16th century, but after that, would need a boost in power.
Well, that works for me. I wasn't sure if I should whip out the chapter from Vehicles (for 3e) that deals with weapon design and hope for the best, or not. (The setting I'm leeching these ship stats for has tech that spans the equivalent of the 1000-1600 AD range; the largest nations are TL 4, two of which have galleons with cannon, with TL 3 Viking Orcs - I just called them the "Northern Raider Clans" - to the far north. Gunpowder's rare and fairly new to the setting, so serpentine powder works.)
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:12 AM   #34
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

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Hanse Cog, Small (50‘)
Hanse Cog, Medium (77‘)
Hanse Cog, Large (70‘)
War Cog (80‘)
I'm wondering if the length of the medium cog is a typo, or if the large cog was just that much wider and taller?
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:19 AM   #35
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

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Originally Posted by tbrock1031
I'm wondering if the length of the medium cog is a typo, or if the large cog was just that much wider and taller?
The latter.

The large cog is based on the Doel Cog wreck, while the medium cog is baesd on the Bremen Hanse Cog wreck. The former is much rounder in the hull than the latter.

'Medium' and 'large' refer to the cargo capacities, not the apparent size.

Note, however, that the beam of the 'medium' cog is similar to the large cog. The hull of the large cog is just taller and rounder, hence allowing more cargo. Note the superior sailing qualities of the 'medium' cog.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:04 PM   #36
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

One of my players in a fantasy campaign just created a character who was part owner of a merchant vessel (largely for the background of his wealth and independent income). This thread is extremely useful and well timed. Thanks.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:14 PM   #37
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

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Originally Posted by RyanW
One of my players in a fantasy campaign just created a character who was part owner of a merchant vessel (largely for the background of his wealth and independent income). This thread is extremely useful and well timed. Thanks.
What's the TL? What's the climate like? Are the trade routes he sails in the open ocean, like the Atlantic, or is it a more covered sea like the Baltic? Perhaps the Med?

If you give me more information, I might have a vessel that fits better than the cogs already given. Or would a cog perhaps be just the vessel you were thinking about?
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:06 PM   #38
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

Thank you very much for your work!

My current fantasy campaign (early TL 4) sees a lot of naval action. The characters own a ship based on a caravel, but carracks and galleons are also common, as well as dhows and galleys in different part of the world.
I have mostly handwaved the stats of the ships (it’s a cinematic, swashbuckling game), but your work gives me a much better basis to handle that.
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Old 11-11-2008, 02:14 PM   #39
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Default Re: Sailing Ships -At least until CCoI (Low-Tech) arrives

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Originally Posted by Quinlor
Thank you very much for your work!

My current fantasy campaign (early TL 4) sees a lot of naval action. The characters own a ship based on a caravel, but carracks and galleons are also common, as well as dhows and galleys in different part of the world.
I have mostly handwaved the stats of the ships (it’s a cinematic, swashbuckling game), but your work gives me a much better basis to handle that.
You'll have your caravels, carracks and galleons soon enough. Galleys will take longer, unfortunately, but they'll eventually show up, never fear. ;)
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Old 11-12-2008, 03:18 PM   #40
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Holks

Holks were a type of medieval sea craft somewhat similar to a cog and appear to have mostly replaced them during the 15th century. Many sources, however, still refer to holks as cogs or improved cogs and there is little archaeological evidence of precisely what the holks looked like. Their basic shape appears to have been a wide and heavy cargo vessel with curved stem and stern, making for a distinctive banana-like profile. They had the same kind of high castles as found on the cogs and the freeboard was similarly high. Later types of holks used a sail-plan that is identified with the vessel, a foremast with a square sail and a lateen sail aft, maybe with a square-rigged mainsail if the vessel was three-masted.

The ancestors of the holks were probably river or canal boats known as hulcs, reverse-clinker built and tracing its ancestry far into the past. At first not well adapted for deep sea travel, the vessel type was already quite advanced from its roots when carvel-built technology appeared in northwest Europe. Makers of hulcs were well placed to adopt the new method for their vessel and the resulting hull type is now known as the holk.

In the fourteenth century the holk existed alongside the cog. The divergent lines of development eventually led to the holk rivalling and eventually supplanting the cog as a major load carrier in the medieval economy, but the causes of that remain obscure. Certainly it is possible, as here is posited, that the carvel construction adopted for holks was better adapted to building larger and stronger hulls than the old clinker-built method. But it is far from certain, and in any event, some later cogs were built with a similar method combined with clinker-built techniques. But whatever the reason for the change, much of northwest Europe used the holk as its primary transport vessel until the advent of caravels and carracks. Even then, elements of holk design found their way into the design of those carracks and thereby later ships such as the galleon and full-rigged ships of the line.

Optional Modifiers: The weakest points of a holk’s hull would be the stem and stern. The usual solution was the support it with clinker-built additions, but these areas would still remain weaker than the carvel-built main hull and keel. Since the structure of most hulls tends to reinforce the stem, the frontal DR of the vessel is unaffected, but the lower DR given applies to the stern as well as the thinner superstructure decking.

While they were better sailors than their predecessors, the cogs, Holks still had a very high centre of gravity. A gale blowing from the side should penalise SR by -1. All holks with two or more masts have one lateen sail which aids them in sailing to windward, but the speed on that tack is still less than that of a completely lateen-rigged vessel or a later ship-rig.

Holk, Early (70‘)
TL: 3
ST/HP: 172†
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 12c
Move: 0.1/4
EWt: 40t
LWt: 97t
Load: 57t
SM: +7
Occ: 14
DR: 15/8
Range: -
Cost: $41K
Locations: M, O, 2S
Draft: 7‘

A contemporary of the cog, this holk is a single-masted vessel that there is no clear reason to prefer over a cog of similar size. It is not much faster than a normal cog and the hull is only slightly stronger for its weight. But it is nevertheless competitive with the best vessels of the day, depending on the personal tastes of captain and craftsman.

Optional Modifiers: A square sail makes it difficult to sail into the wind. Hnd is -1 to windward and speed is slower than a vessel with a lateen-sail or a full rig.

Holk, Transitional (85‘)
TL: 3
ST/HP: 221†
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 12c
Move: 0.15/4.5
EWt: 84t
LWt: 204t
Load: 120t
SM: +7
Occ: 16
DR: 20/10
Range: -
Cost: $82K
Locations: 2M, O, 2S
Draft: 8‘

This is a two-masted vessel that appeared near the turn of the 14th and 15th century. As such, it is marked TL 3, but continued in use during TL4. It is a reliable cargo hauler with uninspiring lines by later standards, but it can carry a lot of cargo for little cost and sails faster and better than a typical cog. It was during this time that the cogs started to be overshadowed.

The castles of this vessel are not particularly large compared to some cogs or even later holks. Nevertheless, the ship can carry enough soldiers in a pinch to make it a viable warship, especially in the absence of effective artillery.

Holk, Medium (98‘)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 230†
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 12c
Move: 0.15/5
EWt: 95t
LWt: 245t
Load: 150t
SM: +8
Occ: 20
DR: 20/10
Range: -
Cost: $90K
Locations: 3M, O, 2S
Draft: 10‘

If the earlier holks overshadowed cogs somewhat, this vessel is a clear advancement in its size category. It is fast and handy, but doesn’t require a crew much larger than a cog, and it can transport a similar amount of cargo. If not for the top-heavy design, the voyages of discovery could have been taken somewhat earlier and in holks instead of caravels.

While the speed and weatherly qualities of this vessel would seem desirable in a man of war, they were incompatible with the higher castles of purpose-built warships of the era.

Holk, Large (120‘)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 275†
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 12c
Move: 0.1/4.25
EWt: 163t
LWt: 408t
Load: 245t
SM: +8
Occ: 25
DR: 20/10
Range: -
Cost: $160K
Locations: 3M, O, 2S
Draft: 10‘

A bulk hauler in the style of the largest cogs, this vessel was responsible for a drop in prices of imported wine and other goods from abroad in northern Europe. While neither as sturdy nor are large as the carrack, this vessel transported an extremely high proportion of cargo to its lightweight, as well as requiring a crew that was not much larger than that of other roundships of the day.

War Holk (120‘)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 301†
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 13c
Move: 0.1/4
EWt: 213t
LWt: 413t
Load: 200t
SM: +8
Occ: 30+160
DR: 25/12
Range: -
Cost: $190K
Locations: 3M, O, 2S
Draft: 10‘

This is a purpose built warship based on the large holk. It has a strengthened hull and taller castles, with accommodations for a large number of warriors. The later carrack is essentially a combination of hull shapes from the Mediterranean with the deck arrangement of ships like this. Its weakness lies in its lack of speed and the high centre of gravity, as with other cogs and holks.

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Last edited by Icelander; 11-20-2008 at 05:15 AM.
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