Homeline moves "up"

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

One of the reasons Centrum is trying to move echoes "up" in quanta is to create an action-reaction effect and push Homeline "down" in quantum, towards lines like Merlin-1, Reich-5 and Shikaku-Mon.
What if they are wrong and instead, there is a gravitational-pull effect bringing Homeline closer to Centrum?
How would the Time War proceed?
Will the mistaken Centrum scientists be in any trouble?

Try this idea. Centrum refuses to deal with the simple fact that Homeline is very different from them and doesn't need the same kind of power structures. Democracy is an alien idea to Centrum and one they reject. If they had to achieve a peace with Homeline, they might either achieve a paradigm shift, or collapse like the Soviets.

Centrum refuses to see Homeline as sane, but Homeline has had to be more open minded.

[SRoach]

I am reminded of a story I once heard, but for which I don't remember the names.
A famous city state, and a famous sculptor. The sculptor planned a statue of a horse, to be produced in a single casting, and arranged, via the city, for the bronze to make the statue.
The city was attacked by a rival. To buy off the rival, the city gave them the bronze, which was to be used to make the horse statue.
A few years later, the rival attacked again...with cannons made from the bronze won during the first attack.

Late in the 20th century, or early in the 21st, that statue was finally made, although it was made by welding sections together, rather than as a single casting, as was originally intended.

Do you want another example? How about Russia and Germany agreeing, not to bother each other during WWII, stick to their own projects and split the continent between them? That lasted about how you'd expect, too, although it did get both some breathing room for awhile, while they both went around snapping up other pieces of property.

Or, how about EVERY TIME the US Government changed the terms the Native Americans had to live by?

Or, another Russia example. Russia FINALLY declaring war on Japan...days before we hit Hiroshima with one of the only two nukes ever used in anger, (and marching into Vietnam.)

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

If [Centrum]had to achieve a peace with Homeline, they might either achieve a paradigm shift, or collapse like the Soviets.

Unlike the Soviets, their economy appears to be sound.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

They'd just nuke Homeline. Problem solved.

Isn't one of Centrum's big fears nuclear war? One of their main driving forces to unify other timelines is so that they avoid the nuclear war Centrum had to endure.

I'm sure if push came to shove they would nuke Homeline, but it would have to be a very final option. Maybe there are cliques inside Centrum leadership that would be willing to do a first strike but I'm not sure overall Centum policy will be a First Strike.

Homeline, on the other hand...

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by SRoach

I am reminded of a story I once heard, but for which I don't remember the names.
A famous city state, and a famous sculptor. The sculptor planned a statue of a horse, to be produced in a single casting, and arranged, via the city, for the bronze to make the statue.
The city was attacked by a rival. To buy off the rival, the city gave them the bronze, which was to be used to make the horse statue.
A few years later, the rival attacked again...with cannons made from the bronze won during the first attack.

Late in the 20th century, or early in the 21st, that statue was finally made, although it was made by welding sections together, rather than as a single casting, as was originally intended.

Do you want another example? How about Russia and Germany agreeing, not to bother each other during WWII, stick to their own projects and split the continent between them? That lasted about how you'd expect, too, although it did get both some breathing room for awhile, while they both went around snapping up other pieces of property.

Or, how about EVERY TIME the US Government changed the terms the Native Americans had to live by?

Or, another Russia example. Russia FINALLY declaring war on Japan...days before we hit Hiroshima with one of the only two nukes ever used in anger, (and marching into Vietnam.)

What are those supposed to be examples of? Because they aren't examples of someone making an agreement with nothing to gain from it. They're mostly examples of people putting short term gain over longer term considerations, which is something you pretty much have to do if someone has a gun to your head. The German Russian deal was a good idea on both sides. It was breaking it that was a bad idea.

[SRoach]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

What are those supposed to be examples of? Because they aren't examples of someone making an agreement with nothing to gain from it.

Point. I was focusing too much on the point of agreeing to a truce with someone who was already known to be untrustworthy to consider the issue of illusory gains.

In the first and third examples, the deal was agreed to from a position of weakness, but the stronger party didn't want to pursue the matter at that time.
In the second and fourth examples, the opportunity to wage war on their other neighbors without interference made both sides overlook the fact that neither side, certainly not the other side, would keep the agreement any longer than it was convenient for that party.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

... The comparison with USA/USSR is weak, ...

Analogies are rarely perfect.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Drifter

Isn't one of Centrum's big fears nuclear war? One of their main driving forces to unify other timelines is so that they avoid the nuclear war Centrum had to endure.

I'm sure if push came to shove they would nuke Homeline, but it would have to be a very final option. Maybe there are cliques inside Centrum leadership that would be willing to do a first strike but I'm not sure overall Centum policy will be a First Strike.

Homeline, on the other hand...

Centrum's big fear is "being nuked again". Nuking other people? Not so much. They don't like it, of course, but they're only going to hold off if they don't think they can knock out the opposition's parachronic capability with one strike.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Centrum's big fear is "being nuked again". Nuking other people? Not so much. They don't like it, of course, but they're only going to hold off if they don't think they can knock out the opposition's parachronic capability with one strike.

But how many nukes does Centrum have and how fast can they build more?

One thing that will terrify Centrum is that the combined militaries of Homeline vastly out number the Military Service, and probably have a lot more recent experience against at lest vaguely comparable opponents. And Centrum won't really believe that Homeline militaries aren't really all controlled by one secret central authority.

The smart move for Centrum would be to publicly make nice with Homeline governments while playing them off against each other and covertly funding resistance movements. But Centrum probably doesn't have the right mindset and political skills to do that well.

On the other side, Homeline governments et al will try to find internal divisions within Centrum society and exploit them. But how feasible will that be?

[scc]

Originally Posted by cptbutton

On the other side, Homeline governments et al will try to find internal divisions within Centrum society and exploit them. But how feasible will that be?

Very easy, from what I've read bureaucratic in-fighting is the order of the day in Centrum