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Old 01-09-2018, 09:48 PM   #231
JLV
 
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
Get those creative juices flowing! I already own the ca. 1980 version and am interested to see what you do ca. 2018.

If I were in your shoes, I would be most tempted by the following possible paths to damnation:

- Develop the personality trait idea into 2-3 pages of material, looking at Prince Valiant and Pendragon for inspiration

- Look carefully through GURPS combat to see which innovations make sense as part of advanced Melee. I'm sure you wish to (and should!) avoid re-writing GURPS, but your treatment of armor, damage and parries and dodges in GURPS would have been terrific in Advanced Melee if you'd thought of them a couple years earlier.
But please, don't turn it into GURPS Light -- you already have that! I LIKE having a game where we can get through combat in a few minutes, even with a large number of opponents, and while GURPS CAN play that fast, it all too frequently doesn't -- especially when Magic and ranged weapons come into full play!

I would like to see the personality traits system developed and regularized a bit more; with some sort of standard reaction roll system that isn't too mind-bogglingly complex or anything -- just as general guidelines...

Likewise for encumbrances, if it's possible to keep it short and sweet.

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- Develop the concept of jobs and their associated risk rolls into something more diverse and flavorful, looking at En Garde! and Flashing Blades for ideas.
Actually, let me suggest Down with the King as a possible additional source of ideas here. They had some incredible "prestige" tables that I actually converted to TFT tables at one point -- carousing, attending court balls, Literary Pursuits, Fashion -- lots of off-the-wall ways for the characters to spend their hard earned gelt and downtime, without necessarily having to be a teamster. My versions weren't very well thought out, and I started to re-work them a few years ago, but that process got aborted somewhere along the way for some reason (but the players enjoyed them -- and I still have them floating around here); I can send them your way if you are interested, Steve, though, like I said, they were kind of weaksauce in comparison to the coolness of the original DWTK tables. Still, something like that would be more fun that being a tanner in my off hours...especially if I managed to make the big haul in the last adventure! (Plus, it's a great way to milk the players of their extra $$ without leaving them feeling honked off at you -- they have fun, you stabilize the economy, what could be better? ;-)

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
- Organize the MH-scale exploration rules into something more structured, resembling the sequence and options of movements and actions in combat

- Ditto for exploration at coarser scales (km or so)
For this, in my opinion, you could do worse that using some variant sort of like the old Judges Guild hex system -- I've used that for macro-mapping for TFT practically ever since TFT came out. Of course, since it already exists, maybe you don't even need to write it up too thoroughly... Also, you might want to at least consider converting meters to feet; though that may verge on heresy too...

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
- Organize all the ITL discussion of economics and so forth into some sort of more structured, week-time-scale campaign play, also a'la En Garde!

- Strip out the alternative combat system from AM and replace with a tight little skirmish rules set, sort of aiming at the design space of Lords of Underearth

Good luck!
Amen to all three of these last! ;-)

(Edited to add -- by the way, I used the macro-economic system in Trailblazer to simulate the gross economy of my regions/cities -- each one produced certain goods, consumed certain goods, and supply and demand fluctuated based on the flow of trade (which the players could get involved in by being anything from caravan guards to merchant princes, depending on their inclination). At the very least it gave me a very good reason for caravans (and ships) to be moving along the trade routes, defined both what those caravans/ships might be carrying, and what kind of off-time jobs might be available in certain localities, and simplified my life enormously when needing quick plot-hooks. Of course, Trailblazer is a paper-intensive system, but I'm wondering if Steve Jackson's own Startrader (which I currently have on order from NobleKnight, but have not yet played) might provide a similar -- and probably simpler/easier to use -- macro-economic model that could be used to "map" the bigger trade routes and things. Maybe not a core rule, but an optional rule, or even a later supplement for the game for GMs to use... Heck, just change the title to The Fantasy Trader, and republish with new goods and a random region/city generation system or something!)

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Old 01-09-2018, 09:57 PM   #232
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

One more comment I'd like to throw out for consideration here.

Many years ago, someone published a neat little article on "Magic Backlash in TFT." It might have been Ronald Pehr in The Spacegamer, but we've already established my memory for specifics is weak, and I have yet to locate the article after a brief search through my Spacegamers (search will continue, unless someone else beats me to it). (Edited to add: Finally! It was by Richard A. Edwards and appeared in TSG #54 (page 10) -- and my apologies to Mr. Edwards for mis-crediting it earlier!)

Basically this was a random table the Wizard rolled on if he got an 18 on a spell-casting roll, and included all sorts of weird effects, like forgetting the spell for a while, not being able to cast the spell for a while, taking damage from the backfire, passing out, and I don't remember what all. (Dungeon Crawl Classic took this concept to the bleeding edge extreme in their game, btw.)

I've always thought this was a remarkably good idea -- it really adds fear and uncertainty to the Wizard's life, and actually, I think is a much better analogue for a dropped or broken weapon to a warrior. In effect, something hideous will potentially happen -- which is much like gazing down in stupor at the broken stub of your sword in your hand... It's been a while since I read it last (and I haven't run a game in the past seven years, so I haven't used it recently, thus all the details escape me now)...but it was an awesome idea, and while I fudged the table around some for my players; they really seemed to enjoy the randomness it introduced into the Wizard's life.

Just a thought on something that's been floating around for years... (And it might at least make a very interesting optional rule!)

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Old 01-09-2018, 10:02 PM   #233
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Because I am a troublemaker, I will point out that TFT had two implicit classes: those with magic talent, who got to buy their spells cheaply, and everyone else.

But I am not going to propose the introduction of a class system. I'm not that heretical. I will admit that that kind of system has its points, pun not intended . . . but just no. D&D has that base covered.
Agreed. Classes have been done to death and TFT doesn’t need them. One of the elegant things about TFT is that the talents make it easy to build characters who resemble the basic RPG classes, as well as multi-classes.

In fact, despite not having classes, TFT allows players to create characters every bit as quickly as 1st Ed AD&D. (As an aside, I don’t think that fast character generation is as appreciated by RPG designers as much it should be. It’s great to be able to get started playing after 15 minutes of character creation. It allows new campaigns to start quickly. It also allows players to replace dead characters quickly and get back in the game. I hope that the current eTFT character generation system is retained).

I will separate from many of my friends and say that I think the number of talents allowed is about right in TFT. I am also ambivalent about the very common mod of letting characters spend 1 attribute point to buy 2 points of talents. I guess it’s okay, but is there any concern about allowing characters too many talents?
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:12 PM   #234
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But please, don't turn it into GURPS Light -- you already have that!
I can’t agree more with this sentiment. I have nothing against GURPS, but it ain’t TFT. And TFT ain’t GURPS Lite. Please keep them different.

Quote:
Actually, let me suggest Down with the King as a possible additional source of ideas here. They had some incredible "prestige" tables that I actually converted to TFT tables at one point -- carousing, attending court balls, Literary Pursuits, Fashion -- lots of off-the-wall ways for the characters to spend their hard earned gelt and downtime, without necessarily having to be a teamster.
Never heard of it, but I will get it ASAP.

Quote:
For this, in my opinion, you could do worse that using some variant sort of like the old Judges Guild hex system -- I've used that for macro-mapping for TFT practically ever since TFT came out. Of course, since it already exists, maybe you don't even need to write it up too thoroughly... Also, you might want to at least consider converting meters to feet; though that may verge on heresy too...
I think that metric literacy might have been higher in the late 1970s than now. My elementary and middle school had extensive indoctrination sessions...er, classes...on the metric system. I personally wouldn’t be offended if the metric system were replaced, but I can live with it staying.
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Old 01-09-2018, 10:43 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Because I am a troublemaker, I will point out that TFT had two implicit classes: those with magic talent, who got to buy their spells cheaply, and everyone else.

But I am not going to propose the introduction of a class system. I'm not that heretical. I will admit that that kind of system has its points, pun not intended . . . but just no. D&D has that base covered.
I think you are close enough to TFT being 'classless' that if you change anything that's the directly I would recommend. It is actually pretty simple: Just fold in one or more talents that are pre-requisites to learning one or more subset of spells. The IQ requirement has to be low (because spells start at IQ 8). But the talent point cost can be stiff. If you want to be a good magician, the only way to make good on the investment is to then go all in on spells. People who want to play hybrid characters (like the Grey Mouser, or Elric) are free to do so, but will end up scrambling for talent points at some level and are unlikely to have more than a few spells (and short change themselves a bit at all the hero business). Anyway, that's how my maximum-house-ruled version works and I don't feel it disturbs the balance among characters or creates a hackable path to some sort of super character.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:02 PM   #236
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

I, also, am in the "No GURPSification" camp. Let T&T be what it always has been...

As for DoU and CoU - it was pretty clearly Howard trying to cut Steve out of the loop... but DoU also was a fully playable TFT-light. Since Steve cannot do DoU per se, a direct reprint is out - but he can definitely take a cue from it and make a "cut down TFT starter" with a $30 or less start point... pogs, rather than standups or minis, and a subset of the full rules, with a decent mini-campaign included, both a tactical and an RP.

It's a strategy that has worked rather well for FFG, Paizo, and for WotC recently, and TSR in the past (BX, BECMI, B/Cyclopedia/WotI); it would have worked well if Mr. Thompson hadn't given up on the gaming industry and/or gone broke about the time Dragons was heading out the door.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:07 PM   #237
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Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Because I am a troublemaker, I will point out that TFT had two implicit classes: those with magic talent, who got to buy their spells cheaply, and everyone else.

But I am not going to propose the introduction of a class system. I'm not that heretical. I will admit that that kind of system has its points, pun not intended . . . but just no. D&D has that base covered.
I always considered that more an accident of birth (in GURPS terms, they had the advantage of "Magery"), not a function of a class system (where people CHOSE to be something, and only that thing). But that's probably just semantic nit-pickery on my part...
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:14 PM   #238
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Never heard of it, but I will get it ASAP.
It's a very fun game in it's own right -- and there were extra Prestige Tables published in The General as I recall (it's an Avalon Hill game), which, if you can't find anywhere else, I will try to find a legal download of for you (though it might be hosted on the Web Archive or something). Naturally, it's out of print now, and the copies on Amazon are running near $100 (and more, over on E-bay). Boardgame Geek might have someone selling one for less, though...


Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeard1999 View Post
I think that metric literacy might have been higher in the late 1970s than now. My elementary and middle school had extensive indoctrination sessions...er, classes...on the metric system. I personally wouldn’t be offended if the metric system were replaced, but I can live with it staying.
That's probably true; I went through the same thing and we were constantly told how metric was coming, was right around the corner...wait for it...wait for it... But the reason I mentioned that is because Steve Jackson said something along the lines of "I think in feet and inches" not too long ago (check out the interview linked to earlier in the other thread), and, sadly, so do I. I'm not hard-over on it or anything, but it might be worth at least considering...or not, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.

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Old 01-09-2018, 11:18 PM   #239
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I agree with everyone else that GURPS-ifying TFT would be a shame. GURPS is a great game, but is already there for whomever is in the mood to play it.

I would point out, though, that combat in AM is filled with all sorts of grainy details: sweeping blows and aimed shots and fistfulls of shuriken and propped arquebuses and off-handed weapons and on and on. It is a fast-playing game and should stay that way, but it is not exactly simple. If a new edition is being published I'd say there's no reason to look at it all, and tweak whatever you want to create mix of old and new special actions and gear that seems like the most fun.
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Old 01-09-2018, 11:25 PM   #240
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Originally Posted by ak_aramis View Post
I, also, am in the "No GURPSification" camp. Let T&T be what it always has been...

As for DoU and CoU - it was pretty clearly Howard trying to cut Steve out of the loop... but DoU also was a fully playable TFT-light. Since Steve cannot do DoU per se, a direct reprint is out - but he can definitely take a cue from it and make a "cut down TFT starter" with a $30 or less start point... pogs, rather than standups or minis, and a subset of the full rules, with a decent mini-campaign included, both a tactical and an RP.

It's a strategy that has worked rather well for FFG, Paizo, and for WotC recently, and TSR in the past (BX, BECMI, B/Cyclopedia/WotI); it would have worked well if Mr. Thompson hadn't given up on the gaming industry and/or gone broke about the time Dragons was heading out the door.
I DO NOT want to "dis" your idea here. But I have to say, from my personal perspective, putting out a TFT-lite is like serving a hotdog bun and telling the customer; "now imagine there's some meat in there..." Honestly, I loved Lords of Underearth, but considered Dragons, as published, pretty much a rip-off -- I was basically paying again for a worse version of a game I already owned. And I don't think my opinion would have changed had I bought them in reverse order. The extra counters and maps suitable for TFT were nice, though...

TFT is already pretty light, and if he does indeed go with Melee and Wizard separately first, followed by full-up TFT, then you already HAVE your lite version. It's one of the things that made TFT so easy to learn in the first place -- it was modular, and you could tackle physical combat, then magical combat, and then tie it all together with a nice framework. Putting it another way, TFT is already about as "lite" as I want to go...

HOWEVER -- that is only my PERSONAL opinion and is in no way a reflection on the quality or utility of your concept to others! I wouldn't buy a "lite" version, but that's probably just me.

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