Ritual Path Alchemy

[mhd]

In my current setting, it's said that alchemy and wizardry both have the same foundations, i.e. they reflect the same approach to taming magic. So I'm thinking about using some kind of RPM variant for alchemy, too.

Now, what needs to be changed to make that work better – either by "forking" the whole system and making it different or just by instituting some kind of "Alchemy Adept" advantage that takes care of most of it?

Alchemists are probably just fine with the default times, and actually reduced time might make it a bit too McGyver-ish. But limiting the number of potions that an alchemist can have active at one time (cf. Charms) doesn't really make sense, so that has to go.
And the price and availability of components might need to be factored in, although "Traditional Trappings" might work as well.

Relying on recipes ("grimoires") is probably more common for alchemists, but this might just reflect the fact that most practitioners aren't adepts and thus need the skill bonus.

Also, I'm not really sure about the path skills…

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by mhd

Also, I'm not really sure about the path skills

A place to start: Take the list of spell magic colleges, which aren't bad as a division of magical effects, and start cutting out ones that don't seem like alchemy.

Doing that gives me, on a quick look, Animal, Body Control, Communication & Empathy, Food, Healing, Illusion & Creation, Meta-potions (cancelling, permanence, etc), Mind Control, Movement, and Protection & Warning.

Now, you probably want to merge some, and rename them all, but it looks like a reasonable length list to do that with.

For ideas for a whole pile more potions, there's a vastly extended alchemy system for D&D here that can be mined.

[Kage2020]

Probably not what you're after, but my knee-jerk is that taking a gander at Thaumatology, specifically "Traditional Materials" (244), as well as "Zodiacal Correspondences" (247) and "Planetary Correspondences" (247). Some research on elemental correspondences would also work (only text and the alchemical images for the four elements).

The established paths in RPM can be readily associated with this information. (I'm doing something similar for an Earthdawn/Shadowrun magic system, or at least experimenting with something similar using Verb-Noun magic--I go backwards and forwards.)

It also strikes me that the Lesser/Greater effects might require some special "glue" to bind the ingredients, or perhaps require certain ingredients that are either "Enchanted through Age" (110).

Just some random, probably entirely unworkable or inappropriate, but there you have 'em.

[Gef]

In the Ritual Path Magic system from Monster Hunters, I can see no functional difference between a charm and a potion. How to add some difference, I'm not so sure. Off the top of my head, I'm thinking "Conditional Only" as a limitation for magery, but that shouldn't be worth much of a discount. Maybe a special skill that let's you gather extra energy if you take extra time and if you use special equipment? However the skill bonus from a workshop translates directly into extra energy.

How about this? Alchemy let's you prepare charms in a modular fashion. That is, Greater Transform Body could be a proto-potion, and Lesser Strengthen Mind could be a proto-potion, sort of like a "mother sauce" to a chef. To make a potion of Extra Arms which includes the neurological changes to use them with full coordination, you start with the two proto-potions I just mentioned and make a new potion (charm) paying only the differential cost (twice the base cost of Lesser Strengthen because it's been combined with a greater effect, plus energy for duration, mass of subject, etc.).

This gives alchemists a lot of flexibility when it comes to gathering energy, making it possible for non-mages to get more bang from this approach. The way to keep it under control is to count each proto-potion as a separate charm against the IQ limit.

GEF

[Refplace]

Yeah I rebuilt a guild based on each college from the 3E system to Path magic and kept the colleges.
I think its very workable for RPM and just tossing out the ones that dont fit your idea of alchemy or merge a few as suggested will work.
Especially if you use the same paths for casting then just use Alchemy to replace Thaumatology or Ritual magic and your back to where we just had Alchemy as a single separate skill with possibly some techniques.
Of course if you dont want mages to be alchemists as well then dont do that :)

Like you I dont like the charm limitation for this. I think you can waive it by simply stating the ingredients stabilize the magic in the potion rather then having the mage have to maintain them.
At that point all you have to worry about is determining cost.

[PseudoFenton]

I'm so glad this thread exists, I was just looking into producing similar stuff myself (although with Herb Lore due to required flavour).
I'm having trouble separating FP from the process and substituting ingredients, but I think using some sort of symbol-magic system makes the most sense for Alchemy due to the lack of rules which current exist for creating new potions. Flexibility of function is needed if you want to have a wide range of potions, especially as their effects would be much narrower than standard magic (unless you include grenade like potions which can be thrown I guess..)

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by PseudoFenton

I'm having trouble separating FP from the process and substituting ingredients, but I think using some sort of symbol-magic system makes the most sense for Alchemy due to the lack of rules which current exist for creating new potions.

Symbol magic is an interesting way to go.
Each herb or major ingrediant could be a symbol or you could go with a type.
I think the first with other ingrediants defaulting if there close.
Also depends on how braod or narrow the scope is.
Heart vs. Dragon heart for example.
Heart could stimulate courage and endurance with different kinds being more or less useful and possibly quirking the results.

[starslayer]

I think maintaining 'cost' versus 'charm capacity' makes sense. Regular alchemy does not reward alchemists for having increased skill so there is no reason to take into account high much higher skill is when calculating costs;


So perhaps a flat 1/1000th of campaign starting wealth per energy point (with the explanation being that alchemy uses things that follow relative value (precious metals, hard to harvest plants, rare coveted things).

Tough I wonder if you could not just use the categories of elixers that are in the GURPS magic (animal control, combat abilities, hostile elixers, magical abilities, medical elixers, mental abilities, mental control, skills and physical abilities)

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by mhd

In my current setting, it's said that alchemy and wizardry both have the same foundations, i.e. they reflect the same approach to taming magic. So I'm thinking about using some kind of RPM variant for alchemy, too.

Now, what needs to be changed to make that work better – either by "forking" the whole system and making it different or just by instituting some kind of "Alchemy Adept" advantage that takes care of most of it?

Alchemists are probably just fine with the default times, and actually reduced time might make it a bit too McGyver-ish. But limiting the number of potions that an alchemist can have active at one time (cf. Charms) doesn't really make sense, so that has to go.
And the price and availability of components might need to be factored in, although "Traditional Trappings" might work as well.

Relying on recipes ("grimoires") is probably more common for alchemists, but this might just reflect the fact that most practitioners aren't adepts and thus need the skill bonus.

Also, I'm not really sure about the path skills…

I seem to recall written Alchemy recipes are called formularies.

Nit picking aside, Alchemy for PCs is severely restricted by brewing time, ingredient availability and ingredient cost. When Kromm wrote Wizards for 3e, he introduced Quick Alchemy with the suggestion that Alchemists use generic ingredients so that the alchemist with $600 in generic ingredients could make any elixir of up to $600 he wanted to, assuming he could make that elixir.

The alternative involves the preselection of magic effects you will perform, something even D&D has moved away from, and packing separate ingredients for each elixir the alchemist intends to make.

It's very possible, VERY possible, to have ingredient costs that exceed the total loot that could be realized in the adventure.

This alone hoses your Alchemist PCs.

One alternative to simply bending the rules for the Alchemical ingredient problem is to posit the existence of some alchemical pre=elixir materials that cost more but functions as "generic" ingredient. Think of the D&D Movie where spell effects came from the powder in one bag. Overall the Alchemist saves money to power his magical effects, but still pays more for any given elixir.

[Flyndaran]

Now that's a good way to have the adventurer alchemist that can whip up just the right potion now and quickly, but also allow those with lesser abilities to make money by having an enormous stock of specialty low price ingredients.