Yrth: Battle Magic and Tactics

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by hal

[...]
Imagine if you will, 30 horses all charging forward. Then imagine the SUMMON BEAST spell hitting all 30 horses at the same time. Imagine then, only 1/2 of the horses turning/swerving towards the summoner, and half going straight. THAT is one ugly pileup waiting to happen. *shudder*

How many Beast Summoners are supposed to survive this?

[hal]

Originally Posted by DrTemp

How many Beast Summoners are supposed to survive this?

Picture if you will...

A lonnnnng line of men in battle formation. Then picture a group of beast summoners working together in a ceremony that lasts all of 10 seconds. Unga, booga, balidath quip - horse dunga beluith nat!

Then suddenly, because the circle of men - either at the flank of the long line summoning all horses within 10 miles, or in the center of a really NICE nasty hedgehog of pikemen, waits for the horses to veer away from their intended victims of a charge, only to discover that they are charging stright towards the pikemen instead - or running relatively parallel to the enemy battleline as they charge instead towards the mage summoners. Either way you look at it, the survival of the summoners is not at issue - it is the survival of the horse cavalry as a unit. They can be peppered with arrows, they can be lured into caltrops, they can be lured into going through the men braced and prepared for them etc.

The idea of even HALF of the horses being able to ignore the summons from the BEAST SUMMONING spell because the riders have "CONTROL HORSE" amulets is going to still be a nasty proposition (assuming not all of the horses can be wrested away from the summoning compulsion.) The issue of having someone own an amulet that lets them control ALL horses is going to be one I doubt any knight will feel comfortable about. Would you ride a warhorse knowing that someone with a control horse amulet can wrest control of the horse from you? Remember - control spells can be contested. If he wins by more than you win, he controls your horse.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Philomath

I should have read Beast Summoning more thoroughly.

Magic Resistance just leads to an arms race (one in which it will lose if it's spell-based).

Anti-magic is the only sure solution I can think of - either piece at a time as in my post above or battle-field at once.

I wonder if Beast Summoning would work on a horse that's mind controlled to think it's a lion or somesuch.

If cancelling magic on the field isn't suitable then perhaps an Animated Object? Animate a wooden horse and it's immune to Beast Summoning or any sort of mind control (as a side note I wonder what the reasoning was behind specifically barring Independence and Initiative from Animated Objects).

As the spell description reads, it seems to be a species based spell rather than a specific "mind" aspect per se. The problem with an anti-magic component is - that the energy cost for that is prohibitive, and it requires at minimum, Magery 1. A crit failure with this spell will remove one level of Magery - possibly permanently, possibly temporarily. But if you use it as part of a linked spell item (like a suspend mana grenade), you need a mage with Magery 3 to create the delay/link spelled item.

The more I read the spell MAGIC RESISTENCE, the more I am of the mind to say that it won't affect the Animal summoning spell. The reason for that is because when a Mage casts the spell BEAST SUMMONING, he's not casting it on anything, he's just casting it. The spell centers on the caster and draws all creatures towards him (if cast in that guise). What probably would have been a BETTER crafting of that spell was to permit the summoned creature a single will resistence roll. Hmmmm.

Possible fix for the spell - give the animal a WILL saving roll (not an IQ saving roll). In this manner, an animal might have a good will stat, but not neccessarily a good IQ stat. Something for me to put in my bag of tricks <g>.

[DrTemp]

Originally Posted by hal

Picture if you will...

A lonnnnng line of men in battle formation. Then picture a group of beast summoners working together in a ceremony that lasts all of 10 seconds. Unga, booga, balidath quip - horse dunga beluith nat!
-
Then suddenly, because the circle of men - either at the flank of the long line summoning all horses within 10 miles, or in the center of a really NICE nasty hedgehog of pikemen, waits for the horses to veer away from their intended victims of a charge, only to discover that they are charging stright towards the pikemen instead
[...]

I recommend you read the spell description again: The beasts run into sight range of the mage. Its tactical use is rather limited- either the number of men protecting the mage is large enough to defeat the charging knights anyway (in which case you don't need the mage), or the mage is dead. Pick one.

[Gef]

Originally Posted by DrTemp

I recommend you read the spell description again: The beasts run into sight range of the mage. Its tactical use is rather limited- either the number of men protecting the mage is large enough to defeat the charging knights anyway (in which case you don't need the mage), or the mage is dead. Pick one.

I thought you meant that after the first time this trick was used, wizards known to work well with animals would go to the top of the enemy's hit list. Just because a nation fields knights doesn't mean they won't field assassins.

GEF

[NorthSaber]

Originally Posted by DrTemp

I recommend you read the spell description again: The beasts run into sight range of the mage. Its tactical use is rather limited- either the number of men protecting the mage is large enough to defeat the charging knights anyway (in which case you don't need the mage), or the mage is dead. Pick one.

I vote for a wizard who also knows Invisibility :P

[Polydamas]

If necessary, surely an effective counterspell to Beast-Summoning will be developed? Or some cheap sort of magic item giving resistance against the one spell? Making the spell resistable by Will also seems reasonable, although it might slow down the spell's use in other circumstances as the GM tries to determine the proportion of animals which ought to be affected.

This looks like one of the things that must be changed in order to keep Yrth vaguely plausible, since the spell is easy to learn and affects a wide area so can have devastating effects when used by a few NPC or PC wizards. I can accept hand-waving over things which ought to change the setting based on various excuses (Create Stone doesn't bother me as long as you forbid Create Metal), but not over things that many starting PCs can do to produce very powerful results.

I just realized that this may not be quite so bad. A pike hedge would be relatively vulnerable to cavalry if the horses were suicidal enough to run into the pikes and break them or knock them aside in getting killed (look up Garcia Hernandez in the Peninsular War for an example, although that was a square of bayonets). The result would probably be a mutual bloodbath. But a mage on the far side of a deep Shape Earthed trench with a few halberdiers to keep off surviving knights could definitely cause problems.

[gjc8]

Perhaps (and this make sense, in a way), only the most recent casting of Beast Summoning works. After all, the horses can't go to 2 places at once. So, the result is something like this. A mage riding with the knights (or a knight with a Beast Summoning item) could cast the spell after the defending mage casts, resummoning the horses to his sight range, but, because he's with them, the only result is some minor disruption instead of a mad charge to somewhere the knights don't want to go.

Also, I'm not sure Beast Summoning forces the animals to take suicidal actions to reach the mage. I would make the horses try their best to get there, but remain aware that running full speed into a trench will break their legs, so the trench would be taken slowly or the horses would try to go around. Still a big disruption, though.

[Philomath]

Originally Posted by hal

The problem with an anti-magic component is - that the energy cost for that is prohibitive, and it requires at minimum, Magery 1. A crit failure with this spell will remove one level of Magery - possibly permanently, possibly temporarily. But if you use it as part of a linked spell item (like a suspend mana grenade), you need a mage with Magery 3 to create the delay/link spelled item.

Yes, it is expensive. Expense doesn't stop modern militaries from purchasing jets though . . . That is the best solution I can come up with by canon. If this actually happened in my game I'd have thrown out the effect as being counter to the spirit of the spell even if it does follow the letter (which is arguable - and winnable for either side of the argument).

[Pesterfield]

I don't think the horses would be suicidal either, but if you have time to prepare the battlefield ahead of time you can dig pits and cover them with grass. The horses will run across with no idea they're going into danger.

The only thing I can see what will help is either an item or potion of Magic Resistance.

Rain is also a good combat spell. If you can keep constant rain following the enemy for days it'll harm equipment and morale, also make it hard on horses and wagons.