[Banestorm] The war of Megalos against Caithness

DrTemp · 01-20-2006, 01:26 AM

From the "medieval magic outcome" thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal

It was noted back when ritual magics were part of the rules, that the rational for why Megalosian Legions could not defeat the Knights of Caithness was based on mages becoming ineffectual. THAT was a laughable issue and I'll tell you why. 5 mages working in concert can defeat one mage who can't. They can trade energy for skill on the multitude of spells they know in common versus having a lone mage warrior having just a few spells at higher levels to offset the -5 penalty for low mana.

Any serious student of history can tell you that if the Legions of Megalos are based on Roman legions, that medieval knights are in for a world of hurt. I seriously doubt that a military that efficient is going to be thrown off by not being able to use magic.

Several things here:

-The battle mages of Megalos were probably not used to thinking in that way, which was part of their problem. Sure, they could have thought of it, but it was just a very alien idea to them. Such mistakes happen throughout Earth's history.

-Remember that those mages on the battlefield will take 10X the time for doing so- so for the same cadence and chance of succes, you need not 5 times as many mages, but 50 times as many.

-Any usual Megalan battle mage with skill 12 in most of his spells will, without rituals, be down to skill level 7- in other words, he'll be useless for direct combat magic. But direct combat magic is the Megalan battle mages' most important field- their most talented mages choose that career path.

-I also imagine that mages who are used to live under the effect of Recover Energy and then suddenly have to work without it easily overestimated themselves and their energy reserves. They probably used doctrines that depended on recovering one FP every 5 minutes, while they actually only recovered one every 10 minutes. This can really blow a battle plan. Especially since the commanders of the Megalan legions were probably no mages, but nobles, who had no intuitive grasp for the limitations Low Mana puts on their mages. Sure, the mages told him that "the local mana is weak", but, hey- we are Megalos. We have the best battle mages in the world.

-The Megalan legions may be tough infantry, but armored knights on horseback are, nodoubtedly, more mobile. Since Megalan doctrine quite probably depends on magical "artillery" handling the most heavily armed opponents, the legionnaires are probably also not that used to conventional, no mana anti-heavy cavalry tactics.

All in all, a military disaster of Megalos in Caithness based on Caithness' low mana level seems quite credible to me.

copeab · 01-20-2006, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrTemp

All in all, a military disaster of Megalos in Caithness based on Caithness' low mana level seems quite credible to me.

I also wonder if, in the case of another full-scale invasion of Caithness by Megalos, Al Wazif has plans to wait until the Megalan forces are well past the Caithness border to then drive north (then west) with a large army, trapping the Megalan forces between two armies and completely destroying it. Not that Caithness and Al Wazif like each other, but it's the old "the enemy of my enemy is my ally" at work. Of course, Megalos probably recognizes this, which is why they are unlikely to try a serious invasion of Caithness again.

hal · 01-20-2006, 02:19 AM

First - militaries that are "professional" are going to take the time and the effort to determine what works versus what doesn't work on the field. After the first "disaster" or major defeat, you know the Megalosian Generals are going to be working on ways to counter the initial problems.

As for magic items being created for use with the military - you know that those units intended to fight in low mana regions will be enchanted to a higher Power than normal. All it takes is to enchant the item with either 3 times the energy required, or it takes 3 times longer. Power 20 enchantments for armies intended in low mana regions will become that much more common than if they were not. Keep in mind however, that the limiting factor here is the number of Mage Manhours available for item creation.

Having said that however - the idea that missile formations can destroy a unit is perhaps a misunderstood conception. Missile fire upon a unit does not cause debilitating casualties if what I'm reading is correct. They tend to account for 3% of the casualties outright during the intial clash of armies - then it breaks down to outright melee combat. Where missile fire excels however, is the breakdown of unit cohesion and morale. THIS can be an issue, especially if you factor in things like magically linked Area effect spells. The problem with this is that LINK as a spell is a magery 3 spell. If Mageborn who have magery 3 are relatively rare - you can't spend them on healing the rich and keeping the rich alive indefinitely with Youth spells and halt aging etc - AND expect them to be involved in very specialized warfare positions.

My experience with GURPSNET magewars taught me a few things about magical warfare implemented with GURPS MASS COMBAT. The first is that using the rules as they are written in GURPS MAGIC, affecting combat is not as easy as the MASS COMBAT rules seem to imply.

Take the following situation as an example: At the start of the battle, the opposing enemy lines are approximately 200 yards apart. At a steady march, both moving at normal march speeds - they close the distance by 100 yards and engage. This takes all of about 120 seconds or so as units adjust their formation while marching - trying to present the perfect combat frontage. 120 seconds? That is about 2 minutes time tops. This isn't even a CHARGE, but simple marching. Name ONE mage who can cast a CONTROL PERSON spell at a range of 200 yards without some form of augumentation.
Now we go to the task of fighting cavalry. Disciplined Roman troops met cavalry charges by throwing pilium to break the charge. From what I've read, a good pilium toss can reach about 65 yards with more effective throwing taking place within a closer range. Front rank looses Pilium advances with drawn sword (or fights with spear). Second rank throws, and takes up position behind front rank. Third rank throws, and advances behind second rank. By being disciplined, they do not (hopefully!) break before the charge and give the horses ground they can run through. If the infantry don't break, the cavalry has no choice but to divert to either side of the infantry that has planted itself in their path. Give the "romans" time to prepare their position, and they defend it rather than advancing - and you have every cavalryman's nightmare - well protected infantry that will NOT break before the charge.

More on this later...

Phil Masters · 01-20-2006, 02:51 AM

The reasons given in the original GURPS Fantasy treatment for Megalos not conquering Caithness do have problems. To be honest, it does take some explanation.

And it so happens that we were fully aware of this when we wrote Banestorm. So we provided what I fondly think are rather better, or at least subtler and more complex, reasons. The big point is that Megalos just isn't as tough, smart, or professionally efficient as it likes to think it is. It's an oversized empire with fundamental inherent problems (though there's more to it than that). Though it's still bloody powerful and dangerous.

(And if you don't think that a rather ramshackle, oversized empire with fundamental inherent problems can't last centuries and threaten its neighbours something rotten - go away and look up the word "Ottoman".)

hal · 01-20-2006, 03:36 AM

Hey Phil,
During the course of your playtesting, did anyone set out to quantify what exactly goes into a Megalosian Legion? Were these legions modelled on Early Rome, Marius' legions, or the Imperial Romans?

I'd be interested in seeing some of your thoughts on this as well as your thoughts on what goes into a Mage Corps that makes a difference between the Legion succeeding and a Legion failing while in Caithness.

One thing to note: Megalos at one time, had the skills for dealing with logistics in a mana low region. If you take into account the fact that the original settlers of Caithness were actually Megalosian citizens, of whom were able to not only settle in Caithness, but prosecute a war against the orcs and drive them to the desert and beyond - one would have to conclude that the people of Megalos do know their stuff. At worst, the Orcs were no better than the Barbarians of Gaul (unless you want to presume they were primatives compared with those of Megalos) against Julius Caesar. So what all happened between when Caithness was first settled and when the Legions marched on Caithness? Was it the close ties of Craine with Caithness? Was treason part of the problem? Did they not know they were dealing with a low mana region and the legion was led by someone with terminal stupidity? Somehow, I have a hard time buying that last bit ;)

Rupert · 01-20-2006, 05:07 AM

The settlement of Caithness by humans tells us that Megalan colonists can, over a period of time, push an orc population off its land. This need not have involved much 'real' military might, and those that did it could well have stayed in Caithness.

On top of that, the social structure of Megalos doesn't seem conducive to innovation, especially the sort that makes you a war hero (war heroes are dangerous - their troops might follow them on some foolish domestic adventure). Also, just because they call their units 'legions', and pretend to be the local inheritor of Roman glory does not make the armies of Megalos professional legionaires. It's quite possible they're more like a late-Empire cavalry unit, and are only marginally more diciplined than a band of Caithness knights. Add in a belief that anything learnt fighting 'backwards rabble' isn't worth remembering, an attitude that 'what worked for Duke Avery a century is good enough for me', and belief in the invinicbility of a Legion, and you have a situation where it'll take a miracle for a Megalan legion to win off its home ground. Certainly their showing against Al-Wazif has been less than stellar in recent wars.

Qoltar · 01-20-2006, 05:10 AM

That would be a supplement that I would buy.

The Caithness / Megalos War. With plenty of maps, 4th edition NPCs statted out, and optional timelines for different versions of the "WAR". Make it under $24.00 - and you've got a deal. Maybe some cardboard characters thrown in representing both sides?? A sheet showing the colors and Coat of arms for both sides?? Their National flags and colors would be nice too.

- E.W. Charlton

Phil Masters · 01-20-2006, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hal

During the course of your playtesting, did anyone set out to quantify what exactly goes into a Megalosian Legion? Were these legions modelled on Early Rome, Marius' legions, or the Imperial Romans?

We don't have a detailed table of organisation anywhere. Personally, I imagine them as vaguely resembling a Byzantine (infantry) legion, with added mage corps as well as Byzantine-style light missile troops.

But mostly - What Rupert Said. With variations. They've had their ups and downs over the centuries, and it's a big empire anyway.

And see Banestorm p.47. It says what I wanted to say on this the first time round, and it stands.

Perssek · 01-20-2006, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qoltar

The Caithness / Megalos War. With plenty of maps, 4th edition NPCs statted out, and optional timelines for different versions of the "WAR". Make it under $24.00 - and you've got a deal. Maybe some cardboard characters thrown in representing both sides?? A sheet showing the colors and Coat of arms for both sides?? Their National flags and colors would be nice too.

Amen to that, brother!

Although I think it would be a E23 product, mainly because the demand for this book would be VERY low - or not. Are that many GURPS players interested in Yrth intricacies of the past (I know I am, but what about the rest? I´m the only guy in my town that plays regularly in Yrth)?

Rolando · 01-20-2006, 02:13 PM

Something to facto in the war of Megalos vs Caithnees is that Caitneesers won their war.

megalos soldiers and officers were with big morale problems... consider all the small spells that an army need for day to day in the field across the wet caithnees hills. Spells that surelly are not cast by high skilled mages. Spells for simple injuries, fatige, food and water supplies, etc.

And losing the first few battles or even wining, but with lots of casualties (harder to cast healing magics) and wounded companions, made them realise of a thing long forgoten... a megalan defeat.

On the other side the caithneesers were figting for theyr land and king! against a hated enemy. The knights of the stone are morale first and combat prowess second. The levies of Caithnees may not be profesionals, but many were good warriors. And the leaders were good stragegists and used all theyr advantages agains the dragon empire.

Even with all this Caithnees got heavy losses in the war (it was not an easy victory). But the megalans saw it as making the imposible as stated in GURPS Banestorm.

I thing that the outcome of that war is higly probable, based on the particular circunstances.

01-20-2006, 02:19 AM	#3
hal Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York	Re: [Banestorm] The war of Megalos against Caithness First - militaries that are "professional" are going to take the time and the effort to determine what works versus what doesn't work on the field. After the first "disaster" or major defeat, you know the Megalosian Generals are going to be working on ways to counter the initial problems. As for magic items being created for use with the military - you know that those units intended to fight in low mana regions will be enchanted to a higher Power than normal. All it takes is to enchant the item with either 3 times the energy required, or it takes 3 times longer. Power 20 enchantments for armies intended in low mana regions will become that much more common than if they were not. Keep in mind however, that the limiting factor here is the number of Mage Manhours available for item creation. Having said that however - the idea that missile formations can destroy a unit is perhaps a misunderstood conception. Missile fire upon a unit does not cause debilitating casualties if what I'm reading is correct. They tend to account for 3% of the casualties outright during the intial clash of armies - then it breaks down to outright melee combat. Where missile fire excels however, is the breakdown of unit cohesion and morale. THIS can be an issue, especially if you factor in things like magically linked Area effect spells. The problem with this is that LINK as a spell is a magery 3 spell. If Mageborn who have magery 3 are relatively rare - you can't spend them on healing the rich and keeping the rich alive indefinitely with Youth spells and halt aging etc - AND expect them to be involved in very specialized warfare positions. My experience with GURPSNET magewars taught me a few things about magical warfare implemented with GURPS MASS COMBAT. The first is that using the rules as they are written in GURPS MAGIC, affecting combat is not as easy as the MASS COMBAT rules seem to imply. Take the following situation as an example: At the start of the battle, the opposing enemy lines are approximately 200 yards apart. At a steady march, both moving at normal march speeds - they close the distance by 100 yards and engage. This takes all of about 120 seconds or so as units adjust their formation while marching - trying to present the perfect combat frontage. 120 seconds? That is about 2 minutes time tops. This isn't even a CHARGE, but simple marching. Name ONE mage who can cast a CONTROL PERSON spell at a range of 200 yards without some form of augumentation. Now we go to the task of fighting cavalry. Disciplined Roman troops met cavalry charges by throwing pilium to break the charge. From what I've read, a good pilium toss can reach about 65 yards with more effective throwing taking place within a closer range. Front rank looses Pilium advances with drawn sword (or fights with spear). Second rank throws, and takes up position behind front rank. Third rank throws, and advances behind second rank. By being disciplined, they do not (hopefully!) break before the charge and give the horses ground they can run through. If the infantry don't break, the cavalry has no choice but to divert to either side of the infantry that has planted itself in their path. Give the "romans" time to prepare their position, and they defend it rather than advancing - and you have every cavalryman's nightmare - well protected infantry that will NOT break before the charge. More on this later...

01-20-2006, 02:51 AM	#4
Phil Masters Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: U.K.	Re: [Banestorm] The war of Megalos against Caithness The reasons given in the original GURPS Fantasy treatment for Megalos not conquering Caithness do have problems. To be honest, it does take some explanation. And it so happens that we were fully aware of this when we wrote Banestorm. So we provided what I fondly think are rather better, or at least subtler and more complex, reasons. The big point is that Megalos just isn't as tough, smart, or professionally efficient as it likes to think it is. It's an oversized empire with fundamental inherent problems (though there's more to it than that). Though it's still bloody powerful and dangerous. (And if you don't think that a rather ramshackle, oversized empire with fundamental inherent problems can't last centuries and threaten its neighbours something rotten - go away and look up the word "Ottoman".) __________________ -- Phil Masters My Home Page. My Self-Publications: On Warehouse 23 and On DriveThruRPG.

01-20-2006, 03:36 AM	#5
hal Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Buffalo, New York	Re: [Banestorm] The war of Megalos against Caithness Hey Phil, During the course of your playtesting, did anyone set out to quantify what exactly goes into a Megalosian Legion? Were these legions modelled on Early Rome, Marius' legions, or the Imperial Romans? I'd be interested in seeing some of your thoughts on this as well as your thoughts on what goes into a Mage Corps that makes a difference between the Legion succeeding and a Legion failing while in Caithness. One thing to note: Megalos at one time, had the skills for dealing with logistics in a mana low region. If you take into account the fact that the original settlers of Caithness were actually Megalosian citizens, of whom were able to not only settle in Caithness, but prosecute a war against the orcs and drive them to the desert and beyond - one would have to conclude that the people of Megalos do know their stuff. At worst, the Orcs were no better than the Barbarians of Gaul (unless you want to presume they were primatives compared with those of Megalos) against Julius Caesar. So what all happened between when Caithness was first settled and when the Legions marched on Caithness? Was it the close ties of Craine with Caithness? Was treason part of the problem? Did they not know they were dealing with a low mana region and the legion was led by someone with terminal stupidity? Somehow, I have a hard time buying that last bit ;)

01-20-2006, 05:07 AM	#6
Rupert Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Wellington, NZ	Re: [Banestorm] The war of Megalos against Caithness The settlement of Caithness by humans tells us that Megalan colonists can, over a period of time, push an orc population off its land. This need not have involved much 'real' military might, and those that did it could well have stayed in Caithness. On top of that, the social structure of Megalos doesn't seem conducive to innovation, especially the sort that makes you a war hero (war heroes are dangerous - their troops might follow them on some foolish domestic adventure). Also, just because they call their units 'legions', and pretend to be the local inheritor of Roman glory does not make the armies of Megalos professional legionaires. It's quite possible they're more like a late-Empire cavalry unit, and are only marginally more diciplined than a band of Caithness knights. Add in a belief that anything learnt fighting 'backwards rabble' isn't worth remembering, an attitude that 'what worked for Duke Avery a century is good enough for me', and belief in the invinicbility of a Legion, and you have a situation where it'll take a miracle for a Megalan legion to win off its home ground. Certainly their showing against Al-Wazif has been less than stellar in recent wars. __________________ Rupert Boleyn "A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."

01-20-2006, 05:10 AM	#7
Qoltar Pike's Pique Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cincinnati, Ohio U.S.A.	Re: [Banestorm] The war of Megalos against Caithness That would be a supplement that I would buy. The Caithness / Megalos War. With plenty of maps, 4th edition NPCs statted out, and optional timelines for different versions of the "WAR". Make it under $24.00 - and you've got a deal. Maybe some cardboard characters thrown in representing both sides?? A sheet showing the colors and Coat of arms for both sides?? Their National flags and colors would be nice too. - E.W. Charlton __________________ Take me out to the black Tell them I ain't comin' back Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me.... A vote for charity: http://s3.silent-tower.org/TheKlingonVotes/index.html Last edited by Qoltar; 01-20-2006 at 07:46 AM. Reason: spelling

01-20-2006, 02:13 PM	#10
Rolando MIB Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Panama	Re: [Banestorm] The war of Megalos against Caithness Something to facto in the war of Megalos vs Caithnees is that Caitneesers won their war. megalos soldiers and officers were with big morale problems... consider all the small spells that an army need for day to day in the field across the wet caithnees hills. Spells that surelly are not cast by high skilled mages. Spells for simple injuries, fatige, food and water supplies, etc. And losing the first few battles or even wining, but with lots of casualties (harder to cast healing magics) and wounded companions, made them realise of a thing long forgoten... a megalan defeat. On the other side the caithneesers were figting for theyr land and king! against a hated enemy. The knights of the stone are morale first and combat prowess second. The levies of Caithnees may not be profesionals, but many were good warriors. And the leaders were good stragegists and used all theyr advantages agains the dragon empire. Even with all this Caithnees got heavy losses in the war (it was not an easy victory). But the megalans saw it as making the imposible as stated in GURPS Banestorm. I thing that the outcome of that war is higly probable, based on the particular circunstances.

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