[DF] AD&D Levels and GURPS Will

[Hai-Etlik]

Being significantly weaker than your foes is grounds for a fright check, and the degree of disparity is grounds for TDM. But it's the strength of the party, not the individual that's really important, and it still comes down to Will in the end and it's a matter of GM judgement what the modifier is or even if the situation warrants a fright check.

[b-dog]

A scenario I was thinking of was one where there was a ward inscribed upon a door sealing a demon inside. This ward caused terror in those of lower levels and would prevent them from opening the door unless they rolled very luckily. Even then there would be a huge sense of unease. I would think the reason that there would be unease in lower powered characters relative to higher power characters in opening the door is the fact that a lower power character would feel powerless against the sorcerer that inscribed the ward because the sorcerer is obviously of a much higher power level than the lower powered character. A higher powered character would not feel as afraid as he may be able to defend himself/herself from the sorcerer.

I guess the idea of the ward is to keep out all but the most brave and powerful characters as the purpose of the ward is to seal the demon inside. I guess it could be ok to have 50 point characters with high Will or Fearlessness come upon the door and say "Gee I wonder what is in here? Oh a demon lord, I probably shouldn't have opened that." But that would change the scenario if low level characters could open the door without being afraid and it sort of defeats the purpose of putting the ward on the door in the first place. I just imagine Scoobie Doo with Scrappy Doo opening the door, a completly powerless puppy that is unafraid of anything "Pupppy-power" I do understand the DF is just a silly genre but I tend to try to run my games straight. I do like the idea of having only characters powerful enough to withstand the fear of a sorcerers ward.

[Kromm]

"Power" in the sense of points or levels is a meta-game construct. People in the game world aren't aware of it and shouldn't be aware of it. The intrusion of levels into the world where the characters live was one of the deepest flaws of early level-based games. I'd love to bury it and never see it again. I know I'll never approve a GURPS supplement that speaks in such terms.

"Power" in the sense of relative might in the game world is demonstrated through actions. No Big Bad is going to settle for something that keeps out only weaklings – it's not them he has to worry about! He's going to go for something that keeps out everybody. This means huge DR and HP, high levels of Resisted spells, locations that simply can't be reached without flight or teleportation or Gate magic, and so on. Anybody who can get past all that is powerful, but they've demonstrated this through deeds.

In your example, if somebody who can open your sealed door just has to be willful, then you don't really mean "powerful"; anybody can have the 50 points it takes to raise Will to 20 from IQ 10. But not just anybody can teleport to Hell, defeat 20 guardian demons, bash through the near-indestructible Black Wall of Doom, and then face the seal that requires Will 20 to open it. It's a broad scope of abilities that determines power, not one score that acts as a litmus for how cool all your other stuff is.

I think that the composite nature of power in a points-based game, and the work needed from the GM to make sure that power means power, not "one high score" or "one crazy ability," is one of the hardest things for GMs used to level-based gaming to get. You simply can't use one score – be that points or Will – to gauge challenges. You have to look at dozens, even hundreds of abilities, and their synergies, and estimate what difficulties and obstacles are needed to keep the PCs away from the things that are too far above them for an encounter to be fun.

Dungeon Fantasy tries to limit the options some, via templates and simplified rules, to make things easier on the players and especially the GM, but it's still GURPS. Reverting it to an old-school level-based style of thinking would mean flattening out character customization and the range of possible adventures a lot. I think this would rip the heart out of DF, frankly, as it would bust a points-based system that offers lots of freedom back to the dark ages. Some concepts from Way Back When are good, and live on in DF, but levels and level-based limits aren't among them.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Power" in the sense of relative might in the game world is demonstrated through actions. No Big Bad is going to settle for something that keeps out only weaklings – it's not them he has to worry about! He's going to go for something that keeps out everybody. This means huge DR and HP, high levels of Resisted spells, locations that simply can't be reached without flight or teleportation or Gate magic, and so on. Anybody who can get past all that is powerful, but they've demonstrated this through deeds.

What about Power in the sense of Supernatural Aura reading? Not necessarily to keep out only weaklings, but warn of potential threats.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Power" in the sense of points or levels is a meta-game construct. People in the game world aren't aware of it and shouldn't be aware of it. The intrusion of levels into the world where the characters live was one of the deepest flaws of early level-based games. I'd love to bury it and never see it again. I know I'll never approve a GURPS supplement that speaks in such terms.

I know you will disagree with me but I feel that power does make sense in a fantasy setting. There are many stories where a sorcerer or seer can sense a powerful being and his/her power is felt in the fabric of reality. Maybe even the same way that those with the force are sensed in Star Wars as some like Luke Skywalker had a very strong force that could be sensed. In DF some super bad-ass Knight in DF could possibly be sensed by a Wizard with the ability to sense how powerful he/she is.

Originally Posted by Kromm

"Power" in the sense of relative might in the game world is demonstrated through actions. No Big Bad is going to settle for something that keeps out only weaklings – it's not them he has to worry about! He's going to go for something that keeps out everybody. This means huge DR and HP, high levels of Resisted spells, locations that simply can't be reached without flight or teleportation or Gate magic, and so on. Anybody who can get past all that is powerful, but they've demonstrated this through deeds.

In your example, if somebody who can open your sealed door just has to be willful, then you don't really mean "powerful"; anybody can have the 50 points it takes to raise Will to 20 from IQ 10. But not just anybody can teleport to Hell, defeat 20 guardian demons, bash through the near-indestructible Black Wall of Doom, and then face the seal that requires Will 20 to open it. It's a broad scope of abilities that determines power, not one score that acts as a litmus for how cool all your other stuff is.

I think that the composite nature of power in a points-based game, and the work needed from the GM to make sure that power means power, not "one high score" or "one crazy ability," is one of the hardest things for GMs used to level-based gaming to get. You simply can't use one score – be that points or Will – to gauge challenges. You have to look at dozens, even hundreds of abilities, and their synergies, and estimate what difficulties and obstacles are needed to keep the PCs away from the things that are too far above them for an encounter to be fun.

Dungeon Fantasy tries to limit the options some, via templates and simplified rules, to make things easier on the players and especially the GM, but it's still GURPS. Reverting it to an old-school level-based style of thinking would mean flattening out character customization and the range of possible adventures a lot. I think this would rip the heart out of DF, frankly, as it would bust a points-based system that offers lots of freedom back to the dark ages. Some concepts from Way Back When are good, and live on in DF, but levels and level-based limits aren't among them.

I agree that the door with a ward that seals a demon inside of it could be changed to have high DR or HP and maybe other magical protections. But still there is an appeal tothe fact that having only those characters with enough heroic essence and power have the fortitude to be able to open such a door as others of lesser ability tend to flee in terror.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I guess the idea of the ward is to keep out all but the most brave and powerful characters as the purpose of the ward is to seal the demon inside. I

If the purpose is to seal a really powerful demon inside, only stopping the weak rather defeats the point.

But if you really like the character level mechanic...why on Earth aren't you playing D&D?

[Ed the Coastie]

I decided a while ago that the best way to handle D&D and AD&D modules in GURPS was to simply keep the setting and plot and adapt everything else. (I'm still having a bit of trouble sorting out the whole treasure thing...)

Then I start looking at specifics. For example, we have a magical seal on a door intended to keep a demon locked inside. Thus, we can assume that the demon is of insufficient power to bypass the seal. It stands to reason that any PC less powerful than said demon will also be unable to bypass the seal. Therefore, it would take a PC more powerful than the demon to bypass the seal.

If the GM believes that the PCs would not be able to defeat the demon, then he is within his rights to simply declare that they cannot bypass the seal. Alternately, he could set it up like a trap, with certain requirements (such as True Faith) that the demon does not possess in order to bypass it.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Kromm

(...) Dungeon Fantasy tries to limit the options some, via templates and simplified rules, to make things easier on the players and especially the GM, but it's still GURPS. Reverting it to an old-school level-based style of thinking would mean flattening out character customization and the range of possible adventures a lot. I think this would rip the heart out of DF, frankly, as it would bust a points-based system that offers lots of freedom back to the dark ages. Some concepts from Way Back When are good, and live on in DF, but levels and level-based limits aren't among them.

Well said. I completely agree.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

But if you really like the character level mechanic...why on Earth aren't you playing D&D?

I was wondering the same.

Originally Posted by b-dog

(...) Maybe even the same way that those with the force are sensed in Star Wars as some like Luke Skywalker had a very strong force that could be sensed. In DF some super bad-ass Knight in DF could possibly be sensed by a Wizard with the ability to sense how powerful he/she is.

That is to be handled with the corresponding degrees of Chi Mastery or Holy Might. These traits, along with others like Power Investiture, True Faith, Blessed and Magery can be indicative of a supernatural power worth of scaring your wicked wizard.

It shouldn't be difficult to imagine how your miscreant wizard could be able to "palpate" some of such traits. And note that I'm speaking about them in substitution for your abstract, obscure "heroic essence / raw power dependent on the character level" DnD based notion.

[Kromm]

I totally agree with using levels of a relevant supernatural Talent as a limit for some things. If you posit some spell or curse or divine working whose cost in energy points or souls or buckets of blood rises exponentially with the Talent level it can repel, then that's fine. If Horrid Demonic Seal requires one dead innocent to keep out Power Investiture 1 clerics, 10 to keep out PI 2, 100 to keep out PI 3, 1,000 to keep out PI 4, 10,000 to keep out PI 5, and 100,000 to keep out PI 6, and the paladins come hunting for your head after the first 10 murders, and there aren't even 100,000 people in the county . . . well, it all makes sense in a Horrid Demonic kind of way. Power Investiture is quantifiable within the game world; it might even come with funky titles.

It's using points that I object to, really. That, and pegging Will to points. Neither makes a lot of sense to me, even in the context of accomplishing what the OP wants to accomplish. Why would the Demonic Forces even care that someone is a 1,000-point clerk (Accounting-200, woohoo!) or 400-point herdsman? And why would a 1,000-point clerk be allowed to have Accounting-200 but not Will 18 when Will is a score that anybody is allowed to raise? It makes more sense within the game world for the "effect on the fabric of reality" one exerts to be pegged to something unique and special, like a supernatural Talent. Someone with Destiny [15] has a lot more effect on reality than some IQ 10 barbarian with Will 20 [50]. I don't see how it could possibly matter who's worth more points per se.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I know you will disagree with me but I feel that power does make sense in a fantasy setting. There are many stories where a sorcerer or seer can sense a powerful being and his/her power is felt in the fabric of reality.

Give them an advantage called Heroic Rank or something. Use the Rank or Social Status rules as a basis, and make Heroic Rank partly supernatural and partly social- they get better job offers, more respect as adventurers, higher position in the adventurer's guild, etc, as social benefits, then use the supernatural part to do whatever you want to port from Zombies and Ziggurats or your game of choice- power aura, access past mystic seals, respect from summoned djinni, etc.

Characters buy it based on some metric of power- capped at 1 level per 50 CP, per number of points in their combat/magic skills, or something like that.