Hidden Lore and Occultism

Jeminai · 08-12-2010, 10:01 AM

I am running a Fantasy game and was wondering when is it appropriate to use either of these skills? They seem to overlap quite a bit.

Any help is appreciated.

zorg · 08-12-2010, 10:10 AM

I see Occultism as a hit-or-miss skill, which includes both magical facts and superstition, without making a real distinction between them. Part Critter lore, part Anthropolgy-subset. Occultism includes folk belief and traditions, even if those are totally misguided.

Hidden lore, otoh, is a professional skill dealing only with facts (hidden facts, obviously). It doesn't include myths, stories or faery tales, unless these contain factual information, or are immensely relevant to the skill.

Kromm · 08-12-2010, 10:29 AM

Occultism is a general-purpose skill that anybody can learn. It covers the murky soup of undifferentiated faith, fiction, folklore, legend, myth, pseudoscience, and superstition common to people who study paranormal abilities, creatures, and/or phenomena without the benefit of established facts. It takes a shotgun approach to the supernatural, and the GM is free at any time to say that it's simply worthless in some cases, with the best result being a critical success that tells you that you really, truly know bupkis. It exists in nearly all settings.

Hidden Lore is a special-purpose skill that only those with access to provable or observable facts can acquire. It covers a specific set of truths about one narrow slice of abilities, creatures, and/or phenomena. You never roll against it for speculation, generalization, or theorization, only to recall facts from a limited catalog of facts. It is rifle-like in its precision. It only exists in settings where the subject matter is provable and not merely conjectural for at least some people.

You'll often want both: Occultism for general speculation, and for a survey of fields outside your area – often because you have no access to the Hidden Lore for those fields, occasionally because there is no Hidden Lore for those fields. Hidden Lore for dealing with known quantities. It's comparable to taking vitamins to be generally healthy vs. getting a smallpox vaccination.

zorg · 08-12-2010, 10:37 AM

That's what I was trying to say. :)

Jeminai · 08-12-2010, 10:41 AM

Consider it "clarified".

Thank you.

P.S. I don't care what Conan says. Kromm, you really do care!

Not another shrubbery · 08-12-2010, 12:14 PM

For the sake of completeness, you might want to review this thread from last year... mostly about how the two skills applied to Dungeon Fantasy settings.

Anaraxes · 08-12-2010, 06:21 PM

Kromm is greater than Crom.

jason taylor · 08-12-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zorg

Hidden lore, otoh, is a professional skill dealing only with facts (hidden facts, obviously). It doesn't include myths, stories or faery tales, unless these contain factual information, or are immensely relevant to the skill.

In many a good Cliffhangers, often these will contain factual information relevant to the story.

Stone Dog · 08-12-2010, 07:55 PM

In a GURPS World of Darkness game, occultism will teach you everything you can learn in a real world library looking up vampires.

Hidden Lore (vampires) will start teaching you things you can learn from the game books.

Both of them will let you know that vampires don't dig on a wooden stake through the chest.

Only Hidden Lore will let you know about the political groups and traditions.

vicky_molokh · 08-13-2010, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Kromm is greater than Crom.

Ïa ïa Cthrommu fhtagn. (The True Guise of Our Good Doctor.)

08-12-2010, 10:01 AM	#1
Jeminai Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Jacksonville FL	Hidden Lore and Occultism I am running a Fantasy game and was wondering when is it appropriate to use either of these skills? They seem to overlap quite a bit. Any help is appreciated. __________________ Two things that I learned from Dungeons & Dragons is that I LOVE GURPS and it isn't really a compliment when a gnome tells you your hair smells nice.

08-12-2010, 10:10 AM	#2
zorg Experimental Subject Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: saarbrücken, germany	Re: Hidden Lore and Occultism I see Occultism as a hit-or-miss skill, which includes both magical facts and superstition, without making a real distinction between them. Part Critter lore, part Anthropolgy-subset. Occultism includes folk belief and traditions, even if those are totally misguided. Hidden lore, otoh, is a professional skill dealing only with facts (hidden facts, obviously). It doesn't include myths, stories or faery tales, unless these contain factual information, or are immensely relevant to the skill. __________________ Like a mail order mogwai...but nerdier - Nymdok understanding is a three-edged sword

08-12-2010, 10:29 AM	#3
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Hidden Lore and Occultism Occultism is a general-purpose skill that anybody can learn. It covers the murky soup of undifferentiated faith, fiction, folklore, legend, myth, pseudoscience, and superstition common to people who study paranormal abilities, creatures, and/or phenomena without the benefit of established facts. It takes a shotgun approach to the supernatural, and the GM is free at any time to say that it's simply worthless in some cases, with the best result being a critical success that tells you that you really, truly know bupkis. It exists in nearly all settings. Hidden Lore is a special-purpose skill that only those with access to provable or observable facts can acquire. It covers a specific set of truths about one narrow slice of abilities, creatures, and/or phenomena. You never roll against it for speculation, generalization, or theorization, only to recall facts from a limited catalog of facts. It is rifle-like in its precision. It only exists in settings where the subject matter is provable and not merely conjectural for at least some people. You'll often want both: Occultism for general speculation, and for a survey of fields outside your area – often because you have no access to the Hidden Lore for those fields, occasionally because there is no Hidden Lore for those fields. Hidden Lore for dealing with known quantities. It's comparable to taking vitamins to be generally healthy vs. getting a smallpox vaccination. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

08-12-2010, 10:37 AM	#4
zorg Experimental Subject Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: saarbrücken, germany	Re: Hidden Lore and Occultism That's what I was trying to say. :) __________________ Like a mail order mogwai...but nerdier - Nymdok understanding is a three-edged sword

08-12-2010, 10:41 AM	#5
Jeminai Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Jacksonville FL	Re: Hidden Lore and Occultism Consider it "clarified". Thank you. P.S. I don't care what Conan says. Kromm, you really do care! __________________ Two things that I learned from Dungeons & Dragons is that I LOVE GURPS and it isn't really a compliment when a gnome tells you your hair smells nice.

08-12-2010, 12:14 PM	#6
Not another shrubbery Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Hidden Lore and Occultism For the sake of completeness, you might want to review this thread from last year... mostly about how the two skills applied to Dungeon Fantasy settings.

08-12-2010, 06:21 PM	#7
Anaraxes Join Date: Sep 2007	Re: Hidden Lore and Occultism Kromm is greater than Crom.

08-12-2010, 07:55 PM	#9
Stone Dog Join Date: Feb 2008	Re: Hidden Lore and Occultism In a GURPS World of Darkness game, occultism will teach you everything you can learn in a real world library looking up vampires. Hidden Lore (vampires) will start teaching you things you can learn from the game books. Both of them will let you know that vampires don't dig on a wooden stake through the chest. Only Hidden Lore will let you know about the political groups and traditions.