A question about Tech Levels

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I submit that TL is more meaningful applied to a society than an individual artifact, and that this lets us draw a useful difference between TL X^ and TL X+Y^.

What defines a TL X+Y society is that in it's general capabilities (notably productivity) it resembles a TL x+y society. A TL X^ society has general capabilities matching a TL X society, plus some 'impossible' capabilities. As the Basic Set points out, the super-science impossibilities don't actually belong to any TL except by arbitrary GM assignment and "superscience doesn’t have to change a society’s overall TL, create a new technology path, or cause a divergent TL."

So when does it do so? When it gives the society broad capabilities higher than their point of divergence in doing the things that non-superscience societies can.

Magic wands that perform like gamma-ray lasers don't make you TL3+9, ^ or no ^, but magic wands that perform like semi-automatic rifles, plus agricultural magic that matches the performance of early tractors and chemical fertilizers, plus Tensor's Floating Disks that do a decent stand-in for trucks, plus something that can stand in for powered, factory production, and so forth...could be TL 3+3, with a ^ in the quite likely case that some of the things the magic does are also impossible to replicate with technology.

"If common (see How Many Mages, p. 103), magic may function as technology’s equal and change the effective TL. (...) Spells may have widespread accessibility in a high-mana world or in a world where most people have Magery. Or enchanted objects might be common, since most don’t require Magery. In either approach, the TL may be difficult to define." - GURPS Fantasy pg 66

The next point is where things get messy: "Settings with magically based TL ratings are effectively alternative histories, where the point of departure is the invention of reliable magic." But many worlds don't do that. Yrth is TL3-4 even though it has had magic from the get go so shouldn't its TL be TL(0+3)?

In fact, GURPS Fantasy introduces the concept of Equivalent TL and Andrew Hackard edited that book as well as Basic Set and Infinite Worlds.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

The next point is where things get messy: "Settings with magically based TL ratings are effectively alternative histories, where the point of departure is the invention of reliable magic." But many worlds don't do that. Yrth is TL3-4 even though it has had magic from the get go so shouldn't its TL be TL(0+3)?
.

No. Yrth does not have a magically based TL rating.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Actually the communicator was not left behind in "Bread And Circuses" (the 20th century Roman like world aka 892-IV) as Merik threw the communicator into the cell after saying "Starship, lock in on this. Three to beam." Claudius does imply that the landing party had more then one communicator but we the audience only see Kirk's.

I wasn't talking about the Starfleet communicators. I'm talking about the gear belonging to Merik's crew.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

No. Yrth does not have a magically based TL rating.

Which is the problem. It should have one.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I wasn't talking about the Starfleet communicators. I'm talking about the gear belonging to Merik's crew.

The episode gives conflicting information regarding the SS Beagle: it is said to be survey vessel but its captain went into the merchant service

Then there are indications that Merik may have sabotaged his ship to force his crew to beam down to the planet.

It is hard to say how much equipment (if any) they had with them. In fact, the Enterprise never tries to see if there are communicators on the planet which is weird.

Of course when it comes to logic TOS often went off the rails.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which is the problem. It should have one.

No, it does not use magic commonly enough for it to take the place of technology. Most Yrthlings live lives in an unaltered medieval manner. Especially in terms of Starting Wealth and other TL-based characteristics.

[a humble lich]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

No, it does not use magic commonly enough for it to take the place of technology. Most Yrthlings live lives in an unaltered medieval manner. Especially in terms of Starting Wealth and other TL-based characteristics.

I can see an argument that there is enough magic in Yrth outside Caithness and Al-Haz to make Yrth TL 3+1, especially in areas like farming, navigation, and medicine. However, given how few wizards there are in society, I don't think it is necessary. I think a lot of it depends on the GM's view of Yrth.

[doctorevilbrain]

Merit sabotaged his ship?! What are you talking about?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Which is the problem. It should have one.

In what sense? In the sense of "It is actually offering reasonably affordable golem carriages or healing potions to the public at large?" It is not. In the sense that there are no reasons why it wouldn't be? That is false. No methods for producing such things on a large scale have been invented yet. Nor do they have a a public education system capable of teaching everyone who can do magic how to.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by doctorevilbrain

Merit sabotaged his ship?! What are you talking about?

The Enterprise discovered the remains of the SS Beagle which contained personal items indicating they left in a hurry.

Then you have indications that the ship was destroyed near a certain planet (planet four, star system eight nine two) and drifted there over six years. (Star Trek physics is wonky as all get out but go with it)

Finally, why would a crew of a survey ship beam her entire crew down given the Prime Directive?

These factors point to Merit sabotaging his own ship.

I should mention that the statement that Rome had no Sun worshipers is incorrect as it ignores the Sol Invictus cult of the 3rd century. In fact, Christianity used its date as the birthday of Jesus in the 4th century.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

In what sense? In the sense of "It is actually offering reasonably affordable golem carriages or healing potions to the public at large?" It is not. In the sense that there are no reasons why it wouldn't be? That is false. No methods for producing such things on a large scale have been invented yet. Nor do they have a a public education system capable of teaching everyone who can do magic how to.

"While spell-based magic is the most common type of supernatural power on Yrth, it’s hardly the only one. Mysticism, while generally considered less powerful than true sorcery, also works here and can achieve remarkable results depending on the strength of the wielder’s belief. Alchemy also possesses a much firmer magical base in Ytarria, although its practice is far from mature." (GURPS Banestorm pg 23)

While Magery is only present in 2% of the human population that has no baring on Mysticism (GURPS Banestorm says that Power Investiture is unknown on Yrth but then turns around and says Blessed is known...even it can function as a limited form of Magery per GURPS Fantasy) or Alchemy.

Heck even with Magery that uncommon the TL can still take it on the chin per GURPS Fantasy with Agrarian Magic playing the most havoc. Five spells known by one mage can allow a village of 100 people to reach production levels surpassed only by those seen in the Green Revolution of the 1920s-30s (TL6)

Of course this is nothing compared to Merlin-1 whose TL should be totally messed up as magery 2 is so common that such mages do assembly line work. (GURPS Technomancer pg 41)