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Old 11-01-2010, 01:15 PM   #41
Kromm
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post

And, despite Kromm's notes on Empathy in 4e, can't immediately shoot kiddie monsters in 3e's Flight 13. :)
. . . which I'd call an error. The author saw the word "Empathy" and ran with it, not stopping to check what it meant in game terms. As an editor, I fix such mistakes all the time. I dislike seeing advantages twisted to limit those who paid points for them. If you want a "realistically" empathetic person, take a suitable mental disad alongside Empathy; if you want a Patron to exert an obligation, add a Duty as well; and so on. I wasn't working here in 1989, though.

Incidentally, that adventure might say, "It requires only the GURPS Basic Set, Third Edition," but it was really written for GURPS Second Edition. It's truly ancient.
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:28 PM   #42
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
. . . which I'd call an error. The author saw the word "Empathy" and ran with it, not stopping to check what it meant in game terms. As an editor, I fix such mistakes all the time. I dislike seeing advantages twisted to limit those who paid points for them. If you want a "realistically" empathetic person, take a suitable mental disad alongside Empathy; if you want a Patron to exert an obligation, add a Duty as well; and so on. I wasn't working here in 1989, though.

Incidentally, that adventure might say, "It requires only the GURPS Basic Set, Third Edition," but it was really written for GURPS Second Edition. It's truly ancient.
Of course you'd call it such. Still, it was a trivial curiosity that an adventure book listed a new effect for a classic trait.
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:57 PM   #43
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post

Incidentally, that adventure might say, "It requires only the GURPS Basic Set, Third Edition," but it was really written for GURPS Second Edition. It's truly ancient.
The true classics often are. :) That's been my single favorite adventure by which to introduce new players to GURPS (suitably modified for system upgrades, of course).

Of course, I usually exerted the "don't shoot that kid" instinct on those who had an appropriate Sense of Duty or some related background disadvantage (such as Flashbacks for a veteran of Bosnia who had seen too many young victims) rather than on those with Empathy, now that I think about it. Which I guess means I understood the intent of the game better than I realized.
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Old 04-23-2020, 12:41 PM   #44
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There's a whole mess of traits here, but no two are exactly alike. The important bits:
Empathy
What It Is: The near-psychic ability to spot impersonators, pod people, possessed individuals, and traitors instantly with an IQ roll. Fringe benefits include detecting that someone is lying in general by making an IQ roll, and +3 to Detect Lies, Fortune-Telling, and Psychology.

When It Works: When you meet the subject in person. You don't necessarily have to see him, but you must come within touching distance of him.

Limitations: Doesn't work on IQ 0-5 entities or on spirits. Doesn't work outside of personal meetings. Its lie-detection ability is vague, and only reveals whether any lying is going on, not the specific bits that are lies, much less the truth.

Illustrations: If anybody in The Matrix had Empathy, they'd have strung up Cypher as soon as he cut his deal. If any of Mystique's enemies had Empathy, her power would be kind of useless.
Detect Lies (untrained use at Per-6 • defaults to Body Language and Psychology at -4 • gives Body Language at -4 • Empathy gives +3)
What It Is: The studied, fairly realistic ability to tell when somebody is lying, primarily from voice stress and word choice. It resists each attempt to lie to you; your subject rolls IQ, Acting, or Fast-Talk. Victory reveals whether a particular statement was a lie – a trick that's beyond simple Empathy (although someone with Empathy could add +3 to the default of Per-6 to try this at Per-3).

When It Works: Whenever you can hear your subject speaking. You do not have to see or even be very near him! This works on dictators giving shouted speeches at rallies or on the radio, and even over the telephone.

Limitations: Does nothing until the subject speaks. Doesn't detect emotions, hidden features, motives, or truths – only lies. Can be defeated by someone with high Acting or Fast-Talk.

Illustrations: This is the classic detective ability in police drama, where the cops behind the one-way glass listen to the interview with the suspect, and one of them suddenly says, "He's lying!"
Body Language (no untrained use • defaults to Detect Lies and Psychology at -4 • gives Detect Lies at -4)
What It Is: The studied, fairly realistic ability to read physical "tells." Can spot impersonators and strong emotions (but nothing as weird as possession or pod people) like Empathy, and lying like Detect Lies, by observing someone. A fringe benefit is being able to spot physical tension: "He's going for a weapon!", "He flinched when you said 'England.' He may be a British agent.", etc.

When It Works: Whenever you can see your subject. You do not have to hear or even be very near him! This works on dictators gesticulating at rallies or on TV, and even via camera or other remote optics.

Limitations: Does nothing if you can't see your subject; hearing or even touching him isn't enough. Doesn't detect motives or hidden features – just lies and impersonation. Empathy gives no bonus.

Illustrations: This is a traditional bodyguard skill, used to spot fake guards and people going for guns. This is also the classic kung fu sifu ability in martial-arts flicks, where the ancient master can tell when his student is angry, not training properly, etc. merely by looking at how he moves.
Psychology (untrained use at IQ-6 • defaults to Sociology at -4 • gives Body Language and Detect Lies at -4 • Empathy gives +3)
What It Is: The studied, fairly realistic ability to predict the general behavior of an individual in a particular situation. This can be reversed to determine whether a particular behavior or deed (e.g., a murder) suits a given person. This is the only predictive ability on this list (although someone with Empathy could add +3 to the default of IQ-6 to try this at IQ-3).

When It Works: After a lengthy period of observation or a full-length interview, possibly supplemented by scientific tests, or after reviewing a file that includes roughly the same level of data on the subject or deed of interest.

Limitations: Does nothing in short order – if you can't observe, interview, or review a file, you can't make any guesses at all. Vague, giving broad answers ("He'll resort to violence.") but never specifics ("Only one man would put deadly poison in the city's water supply."). Worthless against lies and impersonations happening right now.

Illustrations: This is the realistic profiler's ability, often used somewhat cinematically in serial-killer movies like Se7en and Silence of the Lambs.
Somebody with neither Empathy nor points in these skills has no chance of spotting motivations or impersonation on merely meeting or seeing someone, as described for Empathy and Body Language; can tell when he's being lied to in speaking with default Detect Lies at Per-6; and can predict others' behaviors from their profiles with default Psychology at IQ-6.
First of all, thanks to clarify this traits. This was very important.

I have some doubts:

Can i use IQ to detect lies (against IQ, Acting or Fast-Talk)? If so, what this means? I would like you explains IQ (for purposes of lie detection) exactly as you did with Empathy, Detect Lies and Body Language.
And what means "primarily from voice stress and word choice" in Detect Lies definition? Why primarily? It has more than voice stress and word choice? If yes, so what more beyond those parameters?
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Old 04-24-2020, 04:33 AM   #45
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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Originally Posted by giomvrck View Post
And what means "primarily from voice stress and word choice" in Detect Lies definition? Why primarily? It has more than voice stress and word choice? If yes, so what more beyond those parameters?
The presence of a mutual default with Body Language, even if a weak one, hints at visuals playing a role.
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Old 04-24-2020, 06:54 AM   #46
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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Originally Posted by giomvrck View Post
First of all, thanks to clarify this traits. This was very important.

I have some doubts:

Can i use IQ to detect lies (against IQ, Acting or Fast-Talk)? If so, what this means? I would like you explains IQ (for purposes of lie detection) exactly as you did with Empathy, Detect Lies and Body Language.
And what means "primarily from voice stress and word choice" in Detect Lies definition? Why primarily? It has more than voice stress and word choice? If yes, so what more beyond those parameters?
I don't think you can use IQ, but Detect Lies defaults to PER-6 so the average person has an effective Detect Lies skill of 4. if you have PER 20 that would be an actually useful 14.
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Old 04-25-2020, 06:58 AM   #47
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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The presence of a mutual default with Body Language, even if a weak one, hints at visuals playing a role.
Hmm... So it's like the third edition? In 3rd, sunglasses gives -1 to Detect Lies. In the third edition, i've noted that Detect Lies skill is exactly what's the name suggests. This include facial expressions, body posture, gestures, eye moviments, head nods, shoulder shrugs, vocal tone, pitch and volume, word choice, respiration, style of interaction (this include timing too), skin tone and etc... (Exactly like real life detection - this things i've mentioned are included in FACS, EM-FACS, SCAnS, SCAnR etc). This is why Body Language, for purposes of lie detection, is made at -3 penality - the reason for that is because you are perceiving just body, head and face cues. So, in 4th i do not have understood like this. Because the fact of Body Language and Detect Lies are just equal (with the difference that the former is visual and the latter is voice cues, like alredy explained here and in GURPS Mysteries (which don't even mention visual cues for Detect Lies, as i remember). And a true fairly good detection is based on all cues and the congruence of the facts, too. This is why
i have asked. I'm not understanding.
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Old 04-25-2020, 07:36 AM   #48
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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I don't think you can use IQ, but Detect Lies defaults to PER-6 so the average person has an effective Detect Lies skill of 4. if you have PER 20 that would be an actually useful 14.
Well, this is a little bit more complex. I think that it is like a private debate (quick contest of IQ vs IQ) but one person are creating false statements (he is neither trying to feign emotions, body posture etc - in this case this would be Acting or IQ-5 - nor exploring mental triggers, elaborated emotion manipulation, ransoming his atention to prevent him to check the plausibility of the claim, and even using his body and face like Acting, but not caring about coerence with long term behavior (Acting) - which is Fast-Talk or IQ-5. And IQ covers reason, sanity, intuition, creativity, memory, perception etc, which is very suitable for this purpose (to create false statements). This is the reason why Basic Set consider IQ to lie (B187 on Detect Lies skill description). So, a think that IQ may be used for perceive the obvious or "plain sight" incongruencies... This is like using Per to acquire visual cues on a room, but more delicated and specific details not in "obvious plain sight" would require Carpentry for subtle details on woodworking in the room wood features, Mansory for stoneworking, etc... For lie detection i think this same principle could be applied. At least to perceive some incoerence, or "sense" some incongruent emotion (or even a sensation of being lied to or fooled), because intuition and perception are included on IQ, too. And i think that IQ may be used against someone who have used IQ for lie, in case of Acting and Fast-Talk (even at default), the detector need to use Detect Lies and the like - defaults too, of course... I have asked about this because on real life, anybody can perceive incongruencies and etc on a liar (in case of he is using IQ to lie - like a private debate, but not using real and consiatent facts or reasonably consistent, factful and/or logical arguments)...
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Old 04-26-2020, 04:48 AM   #49
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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Hmm... So it's like the third edition? In 3rd, sunglasses gives -1 to Detect Lies. In the third edition, i've noted that Detect Lies skill is exactly what's the name suggests. This include facial expressions, body posture, gestures, eye moviments, head nods, shoulder shrugs, vocal tone, pitch and volume, word choice, respiration, style of interaction (this include timing too), skin tone and etc... (Exactly like real life detection - this things i've mentioned are included in FACS, EM-FACS, SCAnS, SCAnR etc). This is why Body Language, for purposes of lie detection, is made at -3 penality - the reason for that is because you are perceiving just body, head and face cues. So, in 4th i do not have understood like this. Because the fact of Body Language and Detect Lies are just equal (with the difference that the former is visual and the latter is voice cues, like alredy explained here and in GURPS Mysteries (which don't even mention visual cues for Detect Lies, as i remember). And a true fairly good detection is based on all cues and the congruence of the facts, too. This is why
i have asked. I'm not understanding.
You can use Detect Lies by any of the many vectors. Social Engineering page 7 points out that Detect Lies suffer a -3 when operating by text alone (neither voice nor other cues). As for Mysteries, take them with a centner or two of salt, since this is a book that in a bunch of places contradicts how things are assumed to work everywhere else (e.g. Mysteries hearing rules are incompatible with all of Basic Set, High Tech, Powers: Enhanced Senses etc.).
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Old 04-26-2020, 10:04 AM   #50
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Default Re: Can you learn Empathy?

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You can use Detect Lies by any of the many vectors. Social Engineering page 7 points out that Detect Lies suffer a -3 when operating by text alone (neither voice nor other cues). As for Mysteries, take them with a centner or two of salt, since this is a book that in a bunch of places contradicts how things are assumed to work everywhere else (e.g. Mysteries hearing rules are incompatible with all of Basic Set, High Tech, Powers: Enhanced Senses etc.).
So, it's on page 37.
Where, too, the Body Language skill receives +3 from Empathy (unlike Kromm had said). I think that Empathy can be applied to Body Language since at the same time that you are feeling the subject emotions you are confirming/seeing the emotion being shown by his body/head/face.

Yes, i think that Detect Lies is a skill that uses all cues, from all sources. And Fast-Talk, as it seems, is to lie just with speech (or text, or signed communication). You are not feigning with your body, face and head to add more veracity to your lie (in this case it would be Acting). This is why Body Language can't be beaten by Fast-Talk, just Acting, since it relies on visual cues coming from the subject.
But i ask to me: Why Detect Lies uses all cues and if you sucessfully use Body Language you adds +3 to Detect Lies, like Empathy? My answer: because Detect Lies uses visual signs of the lie, and Body Language can gauge the feelings of the subject. This is why if you see a facial microexpression of disdain when the subject are talking about how much he is sad about the ransom of his his wife you have better chances of perceive that he may be lying to you. Same for a sustained and maybe asymmetrical microexpression of sadness (which is incongruent with a true and genuine expression of sadness - this is cientifically and empirical true).

Ok, so i still want to know about my another doubts (those i wrote quoting NineDaysDead).

Thanks for the answers, Vicky_Molokh.
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