Shooting While Grappled

SenorPez · 08-13-2010, 07:41 AM

I remember seeing a post about this sometime during my lurker phase, but I can't seem to find a reference to it. It's possible, of course, that I imagined it all.

The question came up in a game about shooting a gun while being grappled. The following was my ruling:

If the arm holding the weapon (for a one-handed pistol), or either arm (for a two-handed firearm), is grappled, then shooting is impossible.
If the grapple is on another part of the body, you can shoot. There are penalities and risk, however. -4 due to the DX penalty for being grappled and -Bulk for the weapon. If you miss due to the -4, you potentially shoot yourself; check for hitting the wrong target, using the hit location penalty for the body part being grappled.

After the session, one of the players pointed out that RAW says You may not make ranged attacks while being grappled. I couldn't find anything that superceded that in my collection, and while I can see it being applicable to a bow (maybe? I can see an argument for shooting it, but reloading would take a lot of passed DX checks!), a gun, especially a pistol or an SMG, is a different beast.

Thoughts? When that demon mutant chihuahua latches onto your leg using the MA115 Teeth rule, can you plunk at him with your gun instead of or in addition to breaking free? My ruling seemed to work well (even if one PC in question shot himself in the leg), but it was a small sample size, and I'm wondering if there's either an official rule, or something with a bit more playtesting behind it out there?

Kromm · 08-13-2010, 09:46 AM

Your player needs to read more carefully. :) The rules say this:

Under Actions After a Grapple (pp. B370-371), which affects only the initiator of a grapple: "You cannot . . . make ranged attacks . . .".

Under Actions After Being Grappled (p. B371), which affects only the target of a grapple: "You're limited to . . . attacks using weapons with reach C." As Weapons for Close Combat (p. B391) says, ranged weapons count, although they suffer a Bulk penalty (and be aware of the special rules on p. B376 for slapping aside a gun with a parry).

In short, the rules say that if you grab somebody, you can't be shooting him at the same time. If he grabs you, you can certainly shoot back.

Icelander · 08-13-2010, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

In short, the rules say that if you grab somebody, you can't be shooting him at he same time. If he grabs you, you can certainly shoot back.

If you can't grab someone with one hand and shoot him with a pistol in the other, that's a bad rule.

Being grappled probably shouldn't be more advangageous than having someone in a one-handed grapple when struggling for a gun.

Hence my suggestion (which I hope makes it into GURPS Tactical Shooting) to treat guns in Reach C,1 as melee weapons.

SenorPez · 08-13-2010, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Under Actions After Being Grappled (p. B371), which affects only the target of a grapple: "You're limited to . . . attacks using weapons with reach C."

In that callout block, it says "Aim, Feint, Concentrate, and Wait
maneuvers – and ranged attacks – are completely impossible." In considering your response and rereading it again, am I to assume that the ranged attacks mentioned there mean that I can't, for example, shoot that guy 30 yards away while I'm being grappled by Thuggy McMook? It would make sense to me, especially if McMook is trying to help that other guy escape.

Kromm · 08-13-2010, 11:10 AM

I'm seeing the confusion now! Here's the deal: In GURPS, a ranged attack is one that takes modifiers for target speed and range. The game does not assess these modifiers for contact shots. A pistol (or any other firearm) used in close combat is considered a melee weapon, which is why you can parry it (p. B376) and why speed/range modifiers don't apply to its attack roll (p. B391). The game doesn't adequately spell this out, I fully admit.

So . . .

Either fighter in close combat is welcome to roll vs. Guns + Bulk to shoot his foe. This is a melee attack. The enemy can parry. The Bulk penalty replaces the -4/yard of Reach penalty in Martial Arts – it's basically the same kind of penalty.

Neither fighter in close combat can use Guns to shoot out of a grappling situation, though. (Personally, I'd allow it at full Bulk penalties, no Aim possible, and probably -4 for your grappling partner being in the way.)

vicky_molokh · 08-13-2010, 12:27 PM

So, if someone tries to grab another person as a Live Shield (examples spring to mind from Robocop the movie and Hitman the computer game), and shoots another person, how exactly should that be handled? -Bulk and no aim? Sounds more harsh than it looks, but then again it should probably depend on the struggles of the Shield.

Ulzgoroth · 08-13-2010, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

So, if someone tries to grab another person as a Live Shield (examples spring to mind from Robocop the movie and Hitman the computer game), and shoots another person, how exactly should that be handled? -Bulk and no aim? Sounds more harsh than it looks, but then again it should probably depend on the struggles of the Shield.

A pinned victim doesn't impose those constraints. A non-resisting one probably shouldn't either...maybe allow them to (sacrificial) parry your shot by suddenly deciding to resist after all, if you haven't pinned them first.

Using a resisting enemy as a shield while shooting with any sort of accuracy sounds cinematic to me...and it sounds as if Gunslinger would provide that capability.

RobKamm · 08-13-2010, 01:06 PM

It has been a long time since I saw Robocop, but as I recall it was a villain who grabbed a non-combatant and fired away. Assuming I'm remembering that correctly, I would GM that as an attack from Total Surprise. The victim was still under mental stun and couldn't resist the grapple, or interfere with the attacker's actions. Once the victim came out of the stun, and could act normally, I would enforce the restrictions against shooting out of close combat.

In such scenes the (Overconfident) villain will make an AoA immediately before the victim comes out of stun. That allows the victim to AoA, elbow to groin to break the grapple, and use the 1/2 Move to escape (I would allow the attack then move in this case, despite the rule on p. 385).

08-13-2010, 07:41 AM	#1
SenorPez Join Date: Aug 2010	Shooting While Grappled I remember seeing a post about this sometime during my lurker phase, but I can't seem to find a reference to it. It's possible, of course, that I imagined it all. The question came up in a game about shooting a gun while being grappled. The following was my ruling: If the arm holding the weapon (for a one-handed pistol), or either arm (for a two-handed firearm), is grappled, then shooting is impossible. If the grapple is on another part of the body, you can shoot. There are penalities and risk, however. -4 due to the DX penalty for being grappled and -Bulk for the weapon. If you miss due to the -4, you potentially shoot yourself; check for hitting the wrong target, using the hit location penalty for the body part being grappled. After the session, one of the players pointed out that RAW says You may not make ranged attacks while being grappled. I couldn't find anything that superceded that in my collection, and while I can see it being applicable to a bow (maybe? I can see an argument for shooting it, but reloading would take a lot of passed DX checks!), a gun, especially a pistol or an SMG, is a different beast. Thoughts? When that demon mutant chihuahua latches onto your leg using the MA115 Teeth rule, can you plunk at him with your gun instead of or in addition to breaking free? My ruling seemed to work well (even if one PC in question shot himself in the leg), but it was a small sample size, and I'm wondering if there's either an official rule, or something with a bit more playtesting behind it out there?

08-13-2010, 09:46 AM	#2
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Shooting While Grappled Your player needs to read more carefully. :) The rules say this: Under Actions After a Grapple (pp. B370-371), which affects only the initiator of a grapple: "You cannot . . . make ranged attacks . . .". Under Actions After Being Grappled (p. B371), which affects only the target of a grapple: "You're limited to . . . attacks using weapons with reach C." As Weapons for Close Combat (p. B391) says, ranged weapons count, although they suffer a Bulk penalty (and be aware of the special rules on p. B376 for slapping aside a gun with a parry). In short, the rules say that if you grab somebody, you can't be shooting him at the same time. If he grabs you, you can certainly shoot back. __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

08-13-2010, 11:10 AM	#5
Kromm *GURPS* Line Editor Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Montréal, Québec	Re: Shooting While Grappled I'm seeing the confusion now! Here's the deal: In *GURPS, a ranged attack is one that takes modifiers for target speed and range. The game does not* assess these modifiers for contact shots. A pistol (or any other firearm) used in close combat is considered a melee weapon, which is why you can parry it (p. B376) and why speed/range modifiers don't apply to its attack roll (p. B391). The game doesn't adequately spell this out, I fully admit. So . . . Either fighter in close combat is welcome to roll vs. Guns + Bulk to shoot his foe. This is a melee attack. The enemy can parry. The Bulk penalty replaces the -4/yard of Reach penalty in *Martial Arts* – it's basically the same kind of penalty. Neither fighter in close combat can use Guns to shoot out of a grappling situation, though. (Personally, I'd allow it at full Bulk penalties, no Aim possible, and probably -4 for your grappling partner being in the way.) __________________ Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> *GURPS* Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just *GURPS* News]

08-13-2010, 12:27 PM	#6
vicky_molokh GURPS FAQ Keeper Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Kyïv, Ukraine	Re: Shooting While Grappled So, if someone tries to grab another person as a Live Shield (examples spring to mind from Robocop the movie and Hitman the computer game), and shoots another person, how exactly should that be handled? -Bulk and no aim? Sounds more harsh than it looks, but then again it should probably depend on the struggles of the Shield. __________________ Vicky 'Molokh', GURPS FAQ and uFAQ Keeper

08-13-2010, 01:06 PM	#8
RobKamm Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Chicago	Re: Shooting While Grappled It has been a long time since I saw Robocop, but as I recall it was a villain who grabbed a non-combatant and fired away. Assuming I'm remembering that correctly, I would GM that as an attack from Total Surprise. The victim was still under mental stun and couldn't resist the grapple, or interfere with the attacker's actions. Once the victim came out of the stun, and could act normally, I would enforce the restrictions against shooting out of close combat. In such scenes the (Overconfident) villain will make an AoA immediately before the victim comes out of stun. That allows the victim to AoA, elbow to groin to break the grapple, and use the 1/2 Move to escape (I would allow the attack then move in this case, despite the rule on p. 385).