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Old 03-09-2018, 07:10 PM   #671
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Lowering memory cost of talents doesn't fix everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
It seems to me the main talent issues are:
...
* Characters with talents tend to be more capable than those without, but that isn't taken into account for EP costs or estimating character ability level, unless/until someone spends EP on IQ.
...

To me, it seems like reducing talent costs doesn't solve many of those, but that all of that could be neatly addressed by adding some nice talents (more expert talents, armor-wearing talent that reduces armor DX penalty, other tricks), and then letting EP be spend on getting talents without raising IQ but with some revised study rules, and adjusting the EP curve for increasing attributes so it starts getting really steep at about 38 points.
Hi Skarg, everyone.
My superscript rules (and expended talent list) do fix all of these. (Except for one, see below.) However, I think that they are too different from basic TFT for Steve Jackson to go for them.

Making talents cheaper is a easy fix for some of the problems you listed.

Reducing the amount of experience given out is an easy fix for some of the other problems you listed.

A few different, easy fixes would make the new TFT significantly better than the old.

*****

The 'problem' you listed (that I did not cut out above), where people with talents are more capable than those without. I don't think this is a problem.

Talents are good to have. Spending 1 memory on Knife gives you effectively +4 DX for that 1 mIQ. People want to have talents and people should have talents. Everyone has the potential to gain exactly the same advantages with talents as anyone else. I see no reason why characters with talents should get less experience than those without, since everyone will have them.

Now some people with pick talents that work well together and make them more dangerous. Other people will pick talents without these synergies, or non-combat talents, and therefore get less experience in fights.

Is this a big problem? It seems to me that TFT has much bigger problems which should be addressed. Most GM's I know will reduce the experience given by the TFT formula if the fight seems too easy.

Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 03-09-2018 at 07:18 PM. Reason: Spelling error.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:15 PM   #672
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default All talents get more levels.

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
This is something I would like to see re-examined to determine if there is any desirability/feasibility to have Tiered Levels for ALL Talents.

Consider if you will: FLAIL III, WOODSMAN V, SHIELD II, or PHSYCKER IV - could this be used in some way to keep ST 0=DEAD as the rule, AND yet, satisfy those who are asking for a DEAD=FULLY NEG ST Rule change - as a better way to improve the game overall with a high-level of detail, without having to re-work the root-design, and define the distinction between characters more fully, while also expressing how characters play more efficiently?
Hi Jim, everyone.
Jim, if you look at George Dew's TFT knock off "Legends of the Ancient World", you will find he does do this. If you play it, you will see the strengths and disadvantages of this idea.

I think it works pretty well, but any talent that does not have a logical way to say, "each level of this gives a +1 bonus", is awkward in his system.

*****

As for it being 'better' that ST 0 = Totally Dead, I disagree. In the real world it is easier to be knocked out rather than killed. In the real world it is easier to be mortally wounded rather than killed outright.

So some rules which blurs the line between the quick and the dead are A) more realistic, B) more dramatic, and C) more fun. Almost all other rpg agree with this. I don't know of ANY which make it so easy to die and so hard to fall unconscious as TFT.

The main advantage of ST 0 = Totally Dead, is that it is easy to write in a 24 page, micro game rule booklet. However, in a full sized rpg, I hardly think that easy death is a goal to aim for.
Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 03-09-2018 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Added argument about ST 0 = dead.
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Old 03-09-2018, 07:38 PM   #673
JLV
 
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
Default Re: All talents get more levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Jim, everyone.
Jim, if you look at George Dew's TFT knock off "Legends of the Ancient World", you will find he does do this. If you play it, you will see the strengths and disadvantages of this idea.

I think it works pretty well, but any talent that does not have a logical way to say, "each level of this gives a +1 bonus", is awkward in his system.

Warm regards, Rick.
Though actually, I extrapolated it for my own amusement, and it's really not as hard as it would appear to make all talents work at four different levels.

For the purposes of my look at this (generally speaking) I had Level 0, Level 1, Level 2, and Level 3 talents. Level 0 was the "Student" level, where you learned enough that when you tried to do something (say, use a sword) you now could roll for success on 3/ATT (where "ATT" is whatever the appropriate attribute was), instead of 4/ATT (remember, if you don't have the talent, you roll an extra die against the appropriate attribute to succeed).

At Level 1, you were at the "Apprentice" level and received a +1 bonus of some kind (in weapons, you could either take it as a +1 to your DX, or a +1 to the damage dealt, but not both at the same time, you had to pick one or the other; everything else it was generally a +1 to the attribute you needed to roll against for success for the use of that talent only. At Level 2 "Journeyman" you received a +2 bonus, and at Level 3 "Master" you received a +3 bonus.

For weapons, at the +2 and +3 levels, the question was always can you split the bonuses (i.e., do +1 damage while rolling against your DX+1 for the "+2" bonus situation). Personally, I don't see any problem with doing that.

There were a few other special cases, by talent, in there too (e.g., Medic-1 would either allow you to heal an extra HP, or would allow you to increase your attribute for success by one, but not both -- you had to pick and choose).

That also explains where I originally came up with the "10x IQ level of the Talent" for an XP cost for the talents. The way you learned the higher levels of talents was to simply double the cost for each level. So if Sword is an IQ 7 talent, then it would cost you 70XP for Sword-0, 140 XP for Sword-1, 280 XP for Sword-2, and 560 XP for Sword-3, all of which would have to be paid in order. The total cost to become a master swordsman would thus be 1050 XP, which seems pretty reasonable for that level of expertise...and also made for interesting choices when deciding whether to increase or add a talent, or add an attribute point.

You'll note that the above XP cost system tends to flatten the skill levels over the course of the game -- as a new character, you tend to pick up a lot of Level-0 skills pretty rapidly, but that simultaneously delays your attribute increase and still doesn't provide you with much of an advantage in skill. If you really want to go hog-wild as an "early" character (that is, one that has just started his adventuring career), you can bump up Sword-0 to Sword-1, but that costs a bit more in XP than bumping up your DX, say, would. The trade-off is that while bumping up my DX by one accomplishes half of what increasing my skill level would, increasing my skill level ALSO gives me the advantage of increasing my damage instead, if I so choose; so the cost of 140 for Sword-1 is not really out of line with the cost of attributes at that point in your career, and now you are confronted with a meaningful choice on how exactly you want to spend your XP.

Arguably, for the non-weapon talents, it would still be better to take the DX point, but that choice varies more than you think simply because of in-game events, the need to boost IQ for new talents you want to gain, and so on; so again, the choices aren't either/or even in that case...instead you are confronted with competing choices to increase existing skill levels, acquire new skills, raise ST for obvious reasons, raise DX for obvious reasons, or increase IQ to gain new opportunities -- all of which have to be weighed against one another and what is actually occurring in the game itself.

I am NOT suggesting this system for talents, by the way, merely explaining a mental exercise I undertook with TFT Talents based on the DCG's skills method, and showing how it would work in a hypothetical game. Additionally, the description above is neither exhaustive nor complete, so as you pick holes in it, remember, there was more to the idea that what I wrote here. And I think I covered most (if not all) of the problems you will all quickly identify when I wrote this out for myself... ;-)

Last edited by JLV; 03-09-2018 at 07:58 PM.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:27 PM   #674
Bayarea
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Two simple ways to get more talents.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Bayarea, everyone.
I actually agree with you. King Conan was no dummy. However, mentioning his name was a short hand for "I want to play a tough fighter who is not a brain trust, but has lots of talents. Can't be done in TFT."

Warm regards, Rick.
I think it can, just not by a beginning character, again I have adopted some of the talents that were put up on Joe's Brainiac site. A lot of them are yours, so it seems to me a high 30's low 40's pt character can look a lot like Conan, probably not as strong though.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:42 PM   #675
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: All talents get more levels.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
The main advantage of ST 0 = Totally Dead
I think this is because TFT got its start in the form of Melee and Wizard, games about two people fighting in an arena. In that context there is no difference between being dead and unconscious: once someone is hors de combat the game is over. Perhaps it should have been fixed later, but it slipped through.
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Old 03-09-2018, 08:59 PM   #676
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: All talents get more levels.

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Originally Posted by JLV View Post
Though actually, I extrapolated it for my own amusement, and it's really not as hard as it would appear to make all talents work at four different levels. ...
Hi all, JLV.
I was thinking about talents like Armorer, or Architect Builder. Some talents are binary, you have an ability or not. You would need to write them in such a way that they now have 4 (or an indefinite number as in Legends of the Ancient World), different values.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:35 PM   #677
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: All talents get more levels.

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Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I think this is because TFT got its start in the form of Melee and Wizard, games about two people fighting in an arena. In that context there is no difference between being dead and unconscious: once someone is hors de combat the game is over. Perhaps it should have been fixed later, but it slipped through.
In Melee and Wizard, unless an arena combat is To The Death, an unconscious figure could survive to fight again. Those games have experience awards for survivors to improve for later battles, so it's quite significant in those games if someone survives unless players only choose to play stand-alone fights. I thought trying to keep gladiators alive added a lot to my enjoyment when all I had was Melee circa 1979, so the line between unconscious and dead was really important.
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Old 03-09-2018, 10:48 PM   #678
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: All talents get more levels.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
The main advantage of ST 0 = Totally Dead, is that it is easy to write in a 24 page, micro game rule booklet. However, in a full sized rpg, I hardly think that easy death is a goal to aim for.
Warm regards, Rick.
Agreed. One thing I always liked about classic Traveller was how injury worked. There are 3 physical attributes, on a 2d6 scale (but mods can get them each as high as 15). Damage is taken from the physical attributes. When one is at zero, the character is unconscious but lightly wounded. When two are at zero, the character is unconscious and seriously wounded. When all three are at zero, the character is dead. Damage is applied in single die increments. However, the first time a character is wounded all damage is done to one attribute. Since guns typically do about 3d damage, this meant that there’s a decent chance that you’d be knocked out. This enhanced the drama a lot in my opinion. I don’t advocate this system for TFT; it’s just a great example of a system where being knocked out is comparatively easy.
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:27 PM   #679
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: All talents get more levels.

I think for a game like TFT it would be acceptable to say:
  • All talents run from 0 (you don't have it) to whatever.
  • Here are a bunch of talents frequently relevant to adventuring, with rules explaining what they do.
  • Here are some other talents that generally don't matter in adventures, including everything ITL calls a mundane talent. They're intended to be taken by NPCs. If someone needs to use one in play, wing it.

The number of levels should be equal to the number of levels you can realistically distinguish in fiction. I'd say that's probably three, maybe four:
  • Basic/Apprentice: I can do the easy bits. Maybe my job involves a little bit of it. Maybe it's a hobby. Maybe I dropped out of training.
  • Professional/Journeyman: I could do this sort of thing for a living.
  • Expert/Master: I'm the best where I work and they give me the hardest jobs. When the professionals are stumped they come to me. Maybe I have professionals working for me.
  • Genius: Maybe there's a case for having skills that are spoken of in hushed tones, to represent Sherlock Holmes and the like.
The basic level is the most important thing that's missing from TFT, which generally starts at Professional and also supports Expert. It's so common: probably most soldiers have basic Woodsman, for instance, and lots will have basic Physicker, but won't have the IQ for the full versions of these talents. Plenty of people play instruments and could be given basic Bard for flavour.
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:22 AM   #680
tbeard1999
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tyler, Texas
Default Re: All talents get more levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I think for a game like TFT it would be acceptable to say:
  • All talents run from 0 (you don't have it) to whatever.
  • Here are a bunch of talents frequently relevant to adventuring, with rules explaining what they do.
  • Here are some other talents that generally don't matter in adventures, including everything ITL calls a mundane talent. They're intended to be taken by NPCs. If someone needs to use one in play, wing it.

The number of levels should be equal to the number of levels you can realistically distinguish in fiction. I'd say that's probably three, maybe four:
  • Basic/Apprentice: I can do the easy bits. Maybe my job involves a little bit of it. Maybe it's a hobby. Maybe I dropped out of training.
  • Professional/Journeyman: I could do this sort of thing for a living.
  • Expert/Master: I'm the best where I work and they give me the hardest jobs. When the professionals are stumped they come to me. Maybe I have professionals working for me.
  • Genius: Maybe there's a case for having skills that are spoken of in hushed tones, to represent Sherlock Holmes and the like.
The basic level is the most important thing that's missing from TFT, which generally starts at Professional and also supports Expert. It's so common: probably most soldiers have basic Woodsman, for instance, and lots will have basic Physicker, but won't have the IQ for the full versions of these talents. Plenty of people play instruments and could be given basic Bard for flavour.
In my various mods, if I fiddled with talents, I generally went with what you suggest - competent, expert and master levels. Generally, expert level reduced the success roll by 1 die and master by 2 dice. I always thought that this was a reasonable compromise between a binary “either you have it or you don’t” system and a system that rates each skill level individually.

Another approach would be the TFT inspired skill system of Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes. Generally, skills cost a certain amount of IQ points and required minimum IQ levels. Additional levels in the skill generally cost less than the base skill (usually 1 point) and added a +1 to the applicable roll. Not exactly a Runequest-style skill system, but perhaps a proto-GURPS system?

On a completely different note, I have to tip my hat to a man who steps up and fills the clear and overwhelming need for a crossbow creation system.

Where may I find your crossbow creation system? Is there a bow creation system as well? Can these be ported to TFT? If so, any suggestions on how to do it?
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