PC Races of Middle Earth

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it.

Ooh, very good.

[EDIT: On the other hand, maybe that is just how the corrupting effect of the rings always expresses itself- certainly the behavior of Gollum was more or less prefigured by the behavior of Smeagol even before he took the One. On reflection, it would probably suit Tolkein's theology/philosophy for evil to work with what already exists rather than impose new behavior ex nihilo.]

I've always believed this to be the case. It's certainly true of every known possessor of a Ring of Power. The operation of the One Ring is shown to manifest as parts of the mind of the bearer being amplified to control the behavior of the bearer. This is why Gollum seems to have multiple personalities, and why Frodo's Ring-temptations are usually described as a battle within himself. And Sam is presented with the temptation of a worldwide garden.

I sometimes wonder if this isn't so much a power of the Ring over its bearer as it is the natural response to such concentrated power by anyone in Middle-earth. Everyone in possession of a Silmaril goes mad with possessiveness. The Palantiri seem to coerce people into using them. Thorin's dragon-sickness is focused on the Arkenstone. People who have never touched the Ring are tempted by it. The Ring is just the most extreme example of power to dominate, so the mere idea of it is enough to bring out the worst in everyone.

I don't actually think this is the case — I think the Rings actually have an effect on the minds of their bearers — but it's the sort of study of thought and will that Tolkien would entertain in his stories.

Originally Posted by khorboth

So, for Dwarves, we see that they seem immune to total domination, but are still influenceable. Indeed, Sauron managed to get some to make Grond (the ram, not the mace).

Some dwarves just decide to ally themselves with Sauron, just as some men do. It's not necessarily a matter of mental influence on all of them.

Hobbits are resistant, but not immune to... fear, magical fear, domination, influence both magical and mundane, magical control... and maybe lots of other things. This is why I went with WILL. Trying to micromanage each bonus just cost more and did less.

I don't think they're resistant to ordinary fear, "influence," or magical control. I think they're resistant to domination, including intimidation by magical fear. I think the Enemy relies a great deal on spiritual attacks, and hobbits are naturally good at reducing the power of these attacks. The Black Riders gain their power in dark and loneliness. Hobbits form communities that are bright and cheery.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

If you have perfect knowledge, it's obviously the One Ring by a simple process of elimination. It's a Great Ring because it extends Bilbo's life. It can't be the Nine because Sauron has those. It can't be the Three because the elves have those. It can't be the Seven because either Sauron has them or they were consumed by Dragons; they're all accounted for. The only leftover Great Ring is the One. But Gandalf didn't have perfect knowledge until much later.

But that's the thing - those weren't the only magical rings in existence, and Gandalf thought it was a 'lesser' ring. Yes, that was partly because he was a non-expert, but if the rings were the only ones that could do this sort of thing there would never have been any question except whether it was a Dwarf-ring thought lost to dragons, or the One Ring.

Gandalf counciled being sparing in its use because all such rings were powerful and potentially dangerous, but he took a long time confirming it was the One Ring simply because it didn't have to be.

I think it makes anyone invisible who doesn't already have a presence in the spirit world. It's physically dragging you into another plane of existence.

I think that invisibility is its passive power, and it will do this to anyone at all. However, those of great power and wisdom can suppress the effect - turn it off, as it were.

I also do not think it turns people into wraiths. Its power distorts people in other ways.

[khorboth]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

I don't think they're resistant to ordinary fear, "influence," or magical control. I think they're resistant to domination, including intimidation by magical fear. I think the Enemy relies a great deal on spiritual attacks, and hobbits are naturally good at reducing the power of these attacks. The Black Riders gain their power in dark and loneliness. Hobbits form communities that are bright and cheery.

I think they are. The best example in in Sharkey's imperfect control of the Shire. Even the sedentary Hobbits didn't fully submit. He had the objectively stronger men in control. Sure, some of the Hobbits were swayed to his side, but many were thrown in jail rather than submit. The Tooks barricaded themselves in. Others refused to work or slowed down. In general, given the powers of persuasion he'd shown elsewhere, this should have been a very easy task for Saruman. But those darn Hobbitses just won't bend. The men don't intimidate them like they should. Old ladies beat them with umbrellas, and farmers throw rocks at them. Yes, it's a rag-tag group of bandits, but it's much harder than it should be to gain control. I think this shows reserves of will.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Rupert

but if the rings were the only ones that could do this sort of thing

But they're not. The Witch-king's knife could bring a mortal into the spirit-world as a wraith immediately. It only failed to do so with Frodo because the Witch-king missed Frodo's heart.

But the existence of the lesser rings is certainly also a factor in Gandalf not knowing. But only the Great Rings could extend life; Gandalf says this straight-out once he has full knowledge and confirmation. Hence my comment about imperfect versus perfect knowledge. Gandalf gains perfect knowledge (pretty much) by the time he confirms that Frodo has the One Ring.

Gandalf counciled being sparing in its use because all such rings were powerful and potentially dangerous, but he took a long time confirming it was the One Ring simply because it didn't have to be.

And because he didn't want it to be. He was reluctant to admit that Sauron's Ring was in the Shire, because of all the implications that brought.

I also do not think it turns people into wraiths. Its power distorts people in other ways.

Turning people into wraiths was the express purpose of the Rings of Power that the elves did not make themselves. Wraiths were under the control of Sauron. Even after Sauron loses the One, he still controls the Ringwraiths. Gandalf is pretty explicit that the ultimate fate of anyone possessing the Ring is to turn into a wraith (but we've discussed the exceptions).

Originally Posted by khorboth

The best example in in Sharkey's imperfect control of the Shire.

It's a fair example. Just remember that hobbit Will doesn't get strong until they're really in a pinch. They're usually quite soft. They shouldn't have high Will full time. I suppose if the only hobbits with high Will are the adventuring ones, you could just ignore what their Wills are like when they're not adventuring.

[Phantasm]

This isn't Tolkien-canon, as to my knowledge he never did give an origin for them beyond "migrated in from the East", but I've always considered Hobbits as the creator's "wild card" race, originally hidden from the Valinor until the start of the Third Age, which He formed possessing lesser versions of the defining features of the other free races: the grace of the Elves (DX bonus), the hardiness of Dwarves (HT and Will bonuses), the love of nature of the Ents (Green Thumb talent), and the mortality of Men, then added Halfling Ranged Weapon Talent to the mix.

(I say "lesser mortality" because of their longevity compared to non-Numenorean Men.)




My $0.05 worth.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by khorboth

Hobbits are resistant, but not immune to... fear, magical fear, domination, influence both magical and mundane, magical control... and maybe lots of other things. This is why I went with WILL. Trying to micromanage each bonus just cost more and did less.

But not, it seems, the temptation of pipeweed or a good meal ...

More seriously, I have memory of a quote from somewhere in LoTR to the effect of hobbits being so resistant to the effects of the ring because they had so little ambition of their own. They were content to live a simple life, without desiring power over others. So the ring had very little to work with. (But please don't ask for exact quote, because I don't want to go searching all through the entirety of the books for just a sentence or two).

Luke

[Flyndaran]

Just from my watching of the movies, it looked like the ring's main method of corruption was by sliding through the door to pride and ambition. That alone made it gravitate to powerful individuals.
But if you had little of those two, it needed more time to wedge the door open, so to speak.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Rupert

Gandalf ... took a long time confirming it was the One Ring simply because it didn't have to be.

One of the properties of the One Ring was an ability to influence and deceive the holders of the nine, seven and three. Since Gandalf was secretly bearing Narya, he may have been semi-actively misled by the One.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Ooh, very good.

I've always believed this to be the case. It's certainly true of every known possessor of a Ring of Power. The operation of the One Ring is shown to manifest as parts of the mind of the bearer being amplified to control the behavior of the bearer. This is why Gollum seems to have multiple personalities, and why Frodo's Ring-temptations are usually described as a battle within himself. And Sam is presented with the temptation of a worldwide garden.

I sometimes wonder if this isn't so much a power of the Ring over its bearer as it is the natural response to such concentrated power by anyone in Middle-earth. Everyone in possession of a Silmaril goes mad with possessiveness. The Palantiri seem to coerce people into using them. Thorin's dragon-sickness is focused on the Arkenstone. People who have never touched the Ring are tempted by it. The Ring is just the most extreme example of power to dominate, so the mere idea of it is enough to bring out the worst in everyone.

You're conflating different things.

Tolkien explained at one point in correspondence the basic essence of the Rings:

"The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance - this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching 'magic', a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination. And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron... such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible."
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #131]

There's a lot of implication packed into that paragraph. The reason the Great Rings can extend mortal Men's lifespans is that 'prevention or slowing of decay' thing. They can partially suspend the effects of the passage of Time, which is something that naturally appeals to Elves.

For Men (and Hobbits are a race of Men), however, that is toxic, spiritually and physically dangerous, because it suspends the body's process of aging but has no effect on the soul's innate nature. The soul still only has so much vitality and connection to this world, but now the body doesn't age and death doesn't come naturally. This can lead either to wraithdom or a Gollum-like state, depending.

The amplifying of the natural abilities of the user is the part that makes a Ring more powerful in the hands of a more powerful user. Aragorn could do more with the One Ring (or any Ring) than Frodo. Frodo could have done more (if he had so chosen) than Sméagol, because Frodo is greater than Sméagol. But the peril and danger of corruption rises in tandem. Elrond or Galadriel could have done more than Aragorn with the One Ring, but the peril would have been even greater as well.

That's generally true of all the Great Rings, but since Sauron directly helped to create most of the Great Rings, there is additional peril. His involvement tainted them, all the Great Rings other than the Three are to some extant an extension of Sauron's personality, they're all evil in their basic nature. So even along with the natural temptations of power, the Rings amplify the worst elements of their bearers (except for the Three).

The palantiri are, in their innate nature, only as dangerous as any advanced technological device can be. They aren't inherently bad. But once Sauron captured the Palantir of Minas Ithil, they became perilous because they opened a line of mind-to-mind connection with the Dark Lord. This was especially true if they were often so used, so the palantir of Orthanc, which Saruman had often used to communicate with Sauron, and the palantir of Minas Anor, which Denethor had likewise used, were habituated toward the palantir in Sauron's possession.

Likewise the Dragon-sickness. It's a supernatural effect produced by the long presence of Dragons, but it works on the native weaknesses of the victim. Dwarves are esp. vulnerable to it, but nobody is totally immune. (Except maybe Bombadil, who is a special case.)

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

One of the properties of the One Ring was an ability to influence and deceive the holders of the nine, seven and three. Since Gandalf was secretly bearing Narya, he may have been semi-actively misled by the One.

There wasn't any danger of that, as long as the One was not being used for that purpose. The Three were safe for their (naturally immortal) users to use as long as the One was lost, or in the hands of someone who would not, or could not, use its power of control. As long as the One Ring was lost, the Three Rings were safe to use. Once Sméagol had it, the Three were still safe, because Sméagol had no clue what he had and never tried to use that power against the bearers of the Three. Ditto Bilbo.

Frodo knew what he had, but he never tried to use it for that. Galadriel warned him against it, trying that would have destroyed him, unless he first trained his mind and will for the task. It wouldn't be impossible, but it's not something Frodo could have done casually.