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Old 10-12-2018, 01:53 PM   #1
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Mounted Combat: Leaning

From ITL p.130...
Quote:
This represents the rider’s ability to lean different ways in the
stirrups, guide his animal to one side, etc., and is an important
advantage of a rider.
Assuming mount is a horse, what exactly is the advantage of this leaning? I can't see that it makes a difference to anything other than line-of-sight.
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Old 10-12-2018, 06:43 PM   #2
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
From ITL p.130...

Assuming mount is a horse, what exactly is the advantage of this leaning? I can't see that it makes a difference to anything other than line-of-sight.
The word "advantage" seems odd because it's not clear what it's comparing to. I take it as meaning it's an advantage for the rider & mount compared to a single figure, in that a figure on foot has to choose one facing, while a rider and mount can each choose a facing.

It is an important "ability" of a rider, in any case. (If they couldn't choose a facing and hex on the mount each turn, that would be big problem for them in combat.)

Assuming you take it that the mount is what is restricted by engagement, while the rider despite engagement can pick a hex on the mount to be in each turn, that's sort of a mobility advantage when engaged, compared to being on foot.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:38 PM   #3
platimus
 
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Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
The word "advantage" seems odd because it's not clear what it's comparing to. I take it as meaning it's an advantage for the rider & mount compared to a single figure, in that a figure on foot has to choose one facing, while a rider and mount can each choose a facing.

It is an important "ability" of a rider, in any case. (If they couldn't choose a facing and hex on the mount each turn, that would be big problem for them in combat.)
I don't take it that way because the rider's ability to face any direction but rear is granted simply by being mounted. He can do that in either hex so I don't see how "leaning" offers an "important advantage".

Quote:
Assuming you take it that the mount is what is restricted by engagement, while the rider despite engagement can pick a hex on the mount to be in each turn, that's sort of a mobility advantage when engaged, compared to being on foot.
I don't see what that has to do with "leaning" either. The rider isn't "engagable" because he's mounted. The horse is "engagable" though. Yes, that is an "important advantage" but it stems from simply being mounted.

The only advantage I can see from being able to "lean" is that you can avoid two side attackers by "shifting in the saddle". If you're in the "back seat", you avoid attacks from the two front-most side hexes. In the "front seat", you avoid attacks from the two rear-most side hexes. I don't see any of that as an "important advantage" because you could just as easily avoid attacks from those two hexes with the horses movement.

Last edited by platimus; 10-12-2018 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 10-12-2018, 11:24 PM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
The only advantage I can see from being able to "lean" is that you can avoid two side attackers by "shifting in the saddle". If you're in the "back seat", you avoid attacks from the two front-most side hexes. In the "front seat", you avoid attacks from the two rear-most side hexes. I don't see any of that as an "important advantage" because you could just as easily avoid attacks from those two hexes with the horses movement.
Can you? If your horse is engaged by two one-hex figures, it can't just move away, because it is engaged (it could push, but that's another thing). But you could scoot away from at least one of them by changing which horse hex you're on.
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Old 10-13-2018, 06:09 PM   #5
platimus
 
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Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Ah. Hadn't considered that. Thanks!
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:11 AM   #6
platimus
 
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Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Can you? If your horse is engaged by two one-hex figures, it can't just move away, because it is engaged (it could push, but that's another thing). But you could scoot away from at least one of them by changing which horse hex you're on.
I still think that situation can usually be avoided with carefully planning your horse's movement. Also, if the situation does arise that the horse becomes engaged, the rider isn't. Whether the rider can shift on the horse or not has no bearing on whether or not the rider is engaged. It does keep him within attacking reach of both figures though. The scooting you mentioned would allow the rider to escape their reach (assuming they didn't have polearms). If they do have polearms, it doesn't matter. In either case, the rider can dismount and only be attackable by one of the figures.

Still don't see an "important advantage". Nothing significant is lost by ignoring the "leaning" option.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:42 AM   #7
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
I still think that situation can usually be avoided with carefully planning your horse's movement.
If you can avoid situations where you face a number of opponents on foot that you need to fight, maybe. Ever played Grailquest with a mounted knight or otherwise played out someone on horse outnumbered by several foes on foot?


Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
Also, if the situation does arise that the horse becomes engaged, the rider isn't. Whether the rider can shift on the horse or not has no bearing on whether or not the rider is engaged. It does keep him within attacking reach of both figures though. The scooting you mentioned would allow the rider to escape their reach (assuming they didn't have polearms). If they do have polearms, it doesn't matter. In either case, the rider can dismount and only be attackable by one of the figures.

Still don't see an "important advantage". Nothing significant is lost by ignoring the "leaning" option.
What do you mean by "ignoring" it? If you mean you can say figures are glued in place on their horse, and it won't have major effects on their combat ability, I would say you are entirely incorrect about that, having played many battles using the rules, the ability to pick hex and facing on the horse makes a massive difference in practice, in situations where riders face any kind of sticky situation. which I have seen happen very frequently. Without that ability, they'd often be stuck unable to fight people, and with much less ability to choose whom to engage and who can get flank attacks on them.
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Old 10-14-2018, 12:17 PM   #8
platimus
 
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Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

If you ignore the verbage about "leaning" but still allow the rider to attack into any of the 6 hexes adjacent to the side of the horse with a weapon of reach 1 and include the hex directly in front of the horse with a weapon of reach/range greater than 1, nothing significant is lost.

And your point about being outnumbered is irrelevant. If you're on horse-back and the horse is totally surrounded, you're screwed anyway - whether you can "lean" or not.

Last edited by platimus; 10-14-2018 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:18 PM   #9
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by platimus View Post
If you ignore the verbage about "leaning" but still allow the rider to attack into any of the 6 hexes adjacent to the side of the horse with a weapon of reach 1 and include the hex directly in front of the horse with a weapon of reach/range greater than 1, nothing significant is lost.
Not true at all. Go ahead and use that house rule if you like, but there are many significant differences between playing that way and using the rules, such as:

Which hex the rider is in and which direction he's facing has many effects on whom he can attack or be attacked by, and what modifiers apply to the rolls. Ranged attacks, spells, facing effects on the roll to hit, and on shield coverage. Whether or not the attacker can reach or be reached by which hexes with a one or two hex weapon (or a ranged attack) are different. Whether the rider is affected by area spells. Basically all the rules in the system that care about the hex and facing of a figure.


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Originally Posted by platimus View Post
And your point about being outnumbered is irrelevant. If you're on horse-back and the horse is totally surrounded, you're screwed anyway - whether you can "lean" or not.
Surrender if you think so, but I have played out many battles where mounted fighters were surrounded by quite a few figures, in which the outcome was not at all certain, and the specifics of facing and so on were critical to determining what happened, and made for some pretty interesting and tense battles.
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:31 PM   #10
platimus
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: behind you
Default Re: Mounted Combat: Leaning

Well, this is how I'm gonna play it:

Rider is always facing forward on horse for purposes of determining his rear and side hexes. Rider with reach 1 can attack into the 3 adjacent hexes on each side of the horse and the hex directly in front of the horse with reach/range 2. No leaning and no bothering with optional facing. This actually seems more "realistic" to me.
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