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Old 08-13-2022, 11:35 PM   #81
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
DF also has "A traditionalist GM can require heroes to spend $40+ per point for “guild training” before they can “level up” and gain new abilities." (DF1 pg 4) which has the same problem as the old 1500 gp/level/week D&D did — it will start warping the the local economy causing local inflation increasing the cost in GURPS $.
That's specifically about new abilities. Exactly what that means is up to the GM, but I think increasing your Broadsword skill from DX+8 to DX+9 isn't something that calls for paying out for training.

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
If you read that "$40+ per point" as "$40+ per total point" (which is how 'traditional' D&D worked) things get ridiculous.
A ridiculous reading gets you a ridiculous result, shockingly enough.

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Even if you don't do that reading of DF's text if you assume that at one time these were Novice (Competent) [62] then each [250] character has seen $7,520 pass through their fingers.
I mean, there arguably needs to be some sort of money sink to explain why Novice Delvers ([62]) and Veteran Delvers ([250]) start with the same amount of gear, despite the latter likely having spent a good deal of time delving ruins for riches.
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Old 08-14-2022, 04:23 AM   #82
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
That's specifically about new abilities. Exactly what that means is up to the GM, but I think increasing your Broadsword skill from DX+8 to DX+9 isn't something that calls for paying out for training.

A ridiculous reading gets you a ridiculous result, shockingly enough.
Except as I pointed out WoW used this "traditional" mechanic in Classic. Want to improve the level of your spell? You had to pay gold per spell you could improve because each level was considered a "new" ability! So the reading is not as ridiculous as it sounds as it was how "traditional" classic WoW worked 2005 until IIRC sometime before Burning Crusade (2007).

Heck, you could still cast level 1 spells if you wanted to — or if you forgot to switch out the old level on your hotbar which I tended to do; the automation of that process was a big quality of life improvement.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I mean, there arguably needs to be some sort of money sink to explain why Novice Delvers ([62]) and Veteran Delvers ([250]) start with the same amount of gear, despite the latter likely having spent a good deal of time delving ruins for riches.
Well that is a combination of how GURPS handles starting wealth and how, as in this very thread, that [250] is equated to "lvl 1". Heck, DF1 even states: "which most munchkins see as a decent, if stingy, starting point."

I should mention there are other reasons why Veteran Delvers may not improve their financial situation besides money sinks. The most obviously one is also from D&D1e — the amount of wealth monsters have is very low compared to what is needed to level up but it pays better than what the adventurer could make otherwise.

A little computer game called "Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim" (2000) gave a reason why adventurers would do anything if the monster pay outs were so meager — it was not for the wealth the monsters infesting your lands had but for the bounties you as ruler put on them.

As ruler you taxed the guilds and provided consumables to the adventures as well as the option to get better gear. Heck, WoW used and still uses this — early on creatures at best provide materials for potions and making of equipment while it is the reward for the bounties (quests) that really motivate you.

Ironically I so power leveled my crafting skills that if not for the level requirements of gear my characters would have been wearing better gear then they could have gotten in early dungeons and certainly what I was getting from quests.

This brings up another reason the Filth Rich or even wealthier would go dungeoneering — get better gear than can be made in a reasonable amount of time by the locals. Perhaps it is the only place to get very powerful gear (given how long magic items by default Magic rules take to make)

For example, the Staff of the Magi in D&D1e has 19 castable spells and what amounts to Magic Resistance +2. The chance the item would survive this is an 11 on a 3d6 (62.5%), not the best odds given the amount of time it would take for a lone mage to make.

While the Staff of the Magi could be built with via the Magic Items as Advantages (Knacks) method, one is still talking about a minimum of 267 points for the spells (before the various Gadget modifiers) or a totally insane 6,675 mage-days (267 points at 200/hr per point and assuming 8 hour working days). If you want one then better to see if you can find one in a dungeon than sit around a minimum of 3 years with only a 62.5% you will even get the item at the end of it.

All moderately to powerful gear is like that and do you really want to risk someone else getting this insanely rare item?
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Old 08-14-2022, 06:59 AM   #83
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
DF also has "A traditionalist GM can require heroes to spend $40+ per point for “guild training” before they can “level up” and gain new abilities." (DF1 pg 4) which has the same problem as the old 1500 gp/level/week D&D did
GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is not D&D. I don't know how that can be made any plainer.

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it will start warping the the local economy causing local inflation increasing the cost in GURPS $.
There is no economy! GURPS is not a simulator! There is no cause and effect to be modeled! A role-playing game's money is merely a player-facing construct to give them something to do with the money they possess. If you buy a sword from a blacksmith, that money doesn't go anywhere; you just erase it from your character.

And even if you want to cause inflation in your campaign, that won't change what you can buy with GURPS $. GURPS $ always remains fixed. What changes is the local currency. In a fantasy campaign experiencing severe inflation, $1 might start out equal one silver coin or one-twentieth of a gold coin, but after inflation hits $1 equals one gold coin. That product you previously bought for one silver coin ($1) now costs one gold coin ($1). The amount of money you possess (in gold and silver) doesn't change, but their worth in GURPS $ does.
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Old 08-14-2022, 07:22 AM   #84
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Except as I pointed out WoW used this "traditional" mechanic in Classic.
... which means exactly bupkis for this tangent, as we are discussing Dungeon Fantasy, not World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons, Cyberpunk 2077, My Little Pony, or How I Killed Your Master.

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Well that is a combination of how GURPS handles starting wealth and how, as in this very thread, that [250] is equated to "lvl 1". Heck, DF1 even states: "which most munchkins see as a decent, if stingy, starting point."
Prior to the release of Henchmen, [250] was the official starting point, the equivalent of "level 1," even though such characters seem to be experienced delvers. But, yeah, I'm aware of why [62] and [250] delvers have the same starting cash (although the latter are more likely to be able to afford increased Wealth). Personally, I feel $1000 is probably about appropriate for [62] delvers (although I could be persuaded to have them start at $500), and the more experienced ones should start with more cash, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I should mention there are other reasons why Veteran Delvers may not improve their financial situation besides money sinks. The most obviously one is also from D&D1e — the amount of wealth monsters have is very low compared to what is needed to level up but it pays better than what the adventurer could make otherwise.
A more likely explanation is that delvers are like pirates apparently were - get a big score, live it up with booze, blackjack, and hookers until they're basically dead-broke, then desperately go out again looking for the next big score. Rinse and repeat until you get caught by the authorities eaten by monsters.

The issue with that, of course, is that your delvers basically stop living that way as soon as the players come into the picture, as they accumulate magic items (and wealth, although the latter may well find itself being spent on magic items and consumables) rather than blowing it all on wild parties and the like. And this is basically playing the game as intended.

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
A little computer game called "Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim" (2000) gave a reason why adventurers would do anything if the monster pay outs were so meager — it was not for the wealth the monsters infesting your lands had but for the bounties you as ruler put on them.
Whether the monsters have a pile of filthy lucre, or someone back at town is willing to pay a large sum for their extermination, is of minimal consequence, so long as the value of goods is the same. Indeed, some delvers may well prefer the latter option, as it means not needing to transport the wealth back home - it's not always in a convenient form, as a large piece of artwork is difficult to transport without ruining it, and of course a giant pile of copper farthings can be problematic to transport. At least it's not as bad as in early editions of Dungeons and Dragons, where coins were apparently massive enough to weigh 1/10th lb each; even in later editions, copper is worth a lot less than it is in DF - at 50 to a lb, 10,000 copper pieces weighs 200 lb, but is only worth 100 gp, which is roughly equal to the starting gold of a 1st level character, while in DF 200 lb of copper farthings is worth $12,500, between Wealthy and Very Wealthy. And, as I discovered when I ran a brief DnD campaign where I felt it would be appropriate to have a portion of the wealth the kobolds were meant to have actually be in the form of a bounty back in town, players can find ways to cheat the system (with all of us being fans of Diablo II, I decided to have it be that the characters were to cut an ear off each kobold and present those for the bounty; they ended up cutting off both ears, and claiming each came from a different kobold, getting roughly twice the bounty I had intended).

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
This brings up another reason the Filth Rich or even wealthier would go dungeoneering — get better gear than can be made in a reasonable amount of time by the locals. Perhaps it is the only place to get very powerful gear (given how long magic items by default Magic rules take to make)
A Filthy Rich person would more likely hire a party of adventurers to retrieve such an item, if they identified where one was located, than go there themselves (although some weirdoes would do just that). If they don't know where the item they're looking for is located, and are just delving in hopes of finding something good, then they'll actually be better served meeting with (or having a representative meet with) adventurers as they haul their loot back to town, to see if they found anything worth having and offer them a better price than they are likely to get for it from the merchants in town.

Of course, unless the item cannot be made, someone who is Filthy Rich or wealthier is in a position to be able to commission someone to do the job for them.
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Old 08-14-2022, 07:35 AM   #85
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Originally Posted by Stormcrow View Post
There is no economy! GURPS is not a simulator!
Then why have things like Realm Management? :-)

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And even if you want to cause inflation in your campaign, that won't change what you can buy with GURPS $. GURPS $ always remains fixed. What changes is the local currency. In a fantasy campaign experiencing severe inflation, $1 might start out equal one silver coin or one-twentieth of a gold coin, but after inflation hits $1 equals one gold coin. That product you previously bought for one silver coin ($1) now costs one gold coin ($1). The amount of money you possess (in gold and silver) doesn't change, but their worth in GURPS $ does.
"$1 equates roughly with the amount of local currency needed to buy a loaf of bread or equivalent staple" B (Basic Set 27) which is likely taken from "From century to century, corn (grain) is a better measure than silver, because, from century to century, equal quantities of corn (grain) will command the same quantity of labour more nearly than equal quantities of silver." (Adam Smith Wealth of Nations)

But in a magical world with things like the Food College exist food (including "corn") can be insanely cheap. Create Food (2 per meal for organic, 30 seconds) and Essential Food (3 per meal for organic, 30 seconds) are cheap in terms of casting and if you can use ceremonial casting things get totally ridiculous.
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Old 08-14-2022, 08:55 AM   #86
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Then why have things like Realm Management? :-)
Paragraph three of GURPS Ream Management, with my own emphasis:

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Though this supplement presents a kind of a mini-game that one could, if so inclined, use to run simulations of kingdoms and nations, that isn’t what it’s for! It’s meant for campaigns that emulate certain types of fiction and pop culture, and shouldn’t be trotted out as yet another thing on the players’ “to do” list.
There's your answer right there. Just as I described with money, the purpose of GURPS Realm Management is to provide players with what they need to interact with a realm that works the way the GM wants. If the GM wants realms that use leaves as legal tender but nobody seems to notice how illogical and unworkable this is, GURPS Realm Management will support it.

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"$1 equates roughly with the amount of local currency needed to buy a loaf of bread or equivalent staple" B (Basic Set 27) which is likely taken from "From century to century, corn (grain) is a better measure than silver, because, from century to century, equal quantities of corn (grain) will command the same quantity of labour more nearly than equal quantities of silver." (Adam Smith Wealth of Nations)
There you go again, not understanding the purpose of GURPS $. It is not a currency; it is an exchange rate. Characters do not possess $; they possess local currency. In an inflating economy, the local currency changes value, but the $ price remains fixed. $ is not silver, and $ is not corn. $ is absolutely fixed, completely disregarding the actual power of any given person to afford a loaf of bread.

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But in a magical world with things like the Food College exist food (including "corn") can be insanely cheap.
IF you care about emulating this effect, then you can change the price of food. Individual $ prices are not absolute; the value of $ is. If everything goes up in price, then you don't need to change $ prices; just change the exchange rate into local currency. If one thing becomes more expensive, change its $ price without changing the exchange rate of $.

But the existence of the Create Food spell will only affect food prices if the GM wants it to. If the GM would rather have ordinary food prices coexisting with the Create Food spell, then they do. There's no supply and demand behind all this; you just make up what you want.

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Create Food (2 per meal for organic, 30 seconds) and Essential Food (3 per meal for organic, 30 seconds) are cheap in terms of casting and if you can use ceremonial casting things get totally ridiculous.
You can make as many economic citations as you like; it doesn't change the fact that GURPS $ doesn't change with inflation or other economic forces, because in an imaginary setting, those forces would have to be entirely imaginary too. The only thing that causes any economic effects in a game is the GM's will that it be so.
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Old 08-14-2022, 12:48 PM   #87
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Prior to the release of Henchmen, [250] was the official starting point, the equivalent of "level 1," even though such characters seem to be experienced delvers.
Well GURPS Basic Set did put 200-300 as "Larger-than-Life" while "level 1" in many of the games that inspired DF were considered slightly above the average person so there is that disconnect.

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A more likely explanation is that delvers are like pirates apparently were - get a big score, live it up with booze, blackjack, and hookers until they're basically dead-broke, then desperately go out again looking for the next big score. Rinse and repeat until you get caught by the authorities eaten by monsters.
The old Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die mentality. That makes sense if adventuring is insanely risky but by the time they get out of novice land they should have a reasonable handle on when they may be over their head. (You know going after Lolth is... a very bad idea)

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At least it's not as bad as in early editions of Dungeons and Dragons, where coins were apparently massive enough to weigh 1/10th lb each; even in later editions, copper is worth a lot less than it is in DF - at 50 to a lb, 10,000 copper pieces weighs 200 lb, but is only worth 100 gp, which is roughly equal to the starting gold of a 1st level character, while in DF 200 lb of copper farthings is worth $12,500, between Wealthy and Very Wealthy.
Early D&D "weights" were as much a measure of how bulky an item was as well as much it weighed. This is why a single Caltrop clocked in at 50 gp (5 lbs) in weight, a set of simple everyday clothes was 30 gp in weight (3 lbs) and a Staff was 100 gp in weight (a totally silly 10 lbs) — DMG1e pg 225

5e DMG fixed much of that silliness and it actual gives us a indication in how much gold is actual in a gp — "A 5-pound gold bar is worth 250 gp" (pg 20)

This isn't to far off from the leopard coin (1344 at 23 k) which was ~25 mm in diameter which is the same diameter as a Half Eagle $5 (Turban Head) which was .9167 fine (1795-1834) and clocked in at ~1/52 lb. The only thing gonzo is the conversion rate between gold, silver, and copper D&D gives: 1 lb of gold = 10 lb of silver (5e DMG pg 20)

The thing is gold was insanely valuable by even by modern standards supposedly ~$US 3000 adjusted for inflation and topping out around 1492 where it started to decline in value never hitting that zenith again. A more proper ratio would have been about 200 copper coins = 20 Silver coins = 1 gold coin (and that is fudging things like crazy to keep the math sane as 36 sp to 1 gp was more in line with reality.)
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Old 08-16-2022, 01:39 PM   #88
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Indeed, Gurps "dollar" ($) is NOT inflationary. Prices may be rising in the market, but Gurps $ does NOT reflect that. Lets say that a group of adventures earned $1000 "Gurps dollars" in a dungeon. And that, in the setting currency, this is the same as "1000 gp (gold points, local currency)". And lets say that this double the amount of currency in the village they dumped that all out.

So, after a week they hit the dungeon again. They earn another $1000 (Gurps dollars), and yet the prices for the adventures remains the same (in Gurps dollars).

If you wanna say that there is inflation, fine, there is inflation - but that's in the setting currency (gold points), NOT in Gurps dollars.

This means that the adventures have actually earned 2000 gp this time - which by the "new cotation" is worthed $1000 just the same.

Since I highly doubt any one is willing to constantly do math around DF's "bitcoin" (gurps dollar) and yet another fictious currency for a fictious world, you just take things at face value and do not bother about it.

If you do wanna play "Gurps DF: accountability sciences" however, go ahead and do it, but it's important to say that Gurps $ doesnt require this to properly function
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Old 08-16-2022, 01:55 PM   #89
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

Eh, while the GURPS $ isn't inflationary, and is meant to represent the same value in any campaign, that's more a "between campaigns" kind of thing, a good starting point. If you decide the actions of the PC's has resulted in 20% inflation locally, it's a lot easier to just increase the prices in GURPS $ than decrease the value of their coin, in no small part because once the characters leave the local area that is seeing inflation due to the bags of filthy lucre the PC's have brought in, prices are going to go back down to normal, which would mean having to recalculate the worth of their coin again. Just saying "prices are 20% higher here, because of inflation," and then charging $1.20 GURPS for a loaf of bread, will work out a lot better, with a lot less headache than "Due to inflation, each copper farthing is now worth $0.83, each silver penny is now worth $3.33, and each gold piece is now worth $66.67."

Naturally, each group/GM can handle things how they see fit.
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Old 08-16-2022, 08:56 PM   #90
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Default Re: Costs in GURPS dollars

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Indeed, Gurps "dollar" ($) is NOT inflationary. Prices may be rising in the market, but Gurps $ does NOT reflect that.
Which makes things weird when you start having a new TL appear. If you really look at your average setting that inspired DF you see something more in line with Camelot-3 (knights clad in TL4 Renaissance plate mail, living in TL3 13th-century castles, and fighting a TL2 Roman Empire in the 6th century) than the TL3 it claims to be. Heck, thanks to magic you are getting into TL5 territory — Food production likely on par with Four-course crop rotation, Iron rations are a thing, and Platinum being recognized and regarded as far more valuable than gold.

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Eh, while the GURPS $ isn't inflationary, and is meant to represent the same value in any campaign, that's more a "between campaigns" kind of thing, a good starting point. If you decide the actions of the PC's has resulted in 20% inflation locally, it's a lot easier to just increase the prices in GURPS $ than decrease the value of their coin, in no small part because once the characters leave the local area that is seeing inflation due to the bags of filthy lucre the PC's have brought in, prices are going to go back down to normal, which would mean having to recalculate the worth of their coin again. Just saying "prices are 20% higher here, because of inflation," and then charging $1.20 GURPS for a loaf of bread, will work out a lot better, with a lot less headache than "Due to inflation, each copper farthing is now worth $0.83, each silver penny is now worth $3.33, and each gold piece is now worth $66.67."

Naturally, each group/GM can handle things how they see fit.
The only problem with doing that is you are effectively hitting everyone with a quasi-disadvantage of 'less than average wealth'.

There is a little piece regarding "Controlling Inflation" in the Basic Set and it suggests make expensive things (ships, noble titles, etc) available and options of getting involved in long-term, high-risk ventures — though if the average adventurer has a 'live for today because tomorrow you may be worm food' mentality that last option is effectively out the window.
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