Pro-Wrestling

[Johnny Angel]

I'm getting ready to run a martial arts game for a group of friends, and the campaign is going to be based around professional wrestling. I have most of the work down for the campaign and worked out a few alternate rules to help with the cinematic nature of matches, but there are still a few things I'm unsure of. Some I've asked about before when writing up a similar game in the past, but I cannot find the old thread.

Note: For the purposes of this game, pro-wrestling is being treated as real.

In particular, one of the most common moves is the "Irish Whip." The basic idea is that you grab the opponent's arm and propel them into the ring ropes. They then recoil off of the ropes and involuntarily run back toward you -at which time you clobber them with some sort of high impact move. I'm having some trouble figuring out how to model that as a technique.

The first part of what the guy does here in this video is an Irish Whip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwuRk917hU4

My initial thought was to make attempting it some sort of contest between ST or possibly Wrestling skill, but that it didn't really work out well when I ran a few test matches using NPCs.

I've also considered making it some sort of technique which doesn't do any damage, but damage would still be rolled for the purposes of knockback, and the amount of knockback would determine how far you could 'whip' the opponent. That seems a bit clunky though; for a commonly used move, I'd like something a little smoother.

In a similar vein, I'm also trying to consider what effects choosing to run into the ropes should have. It's also a common move to run into the ropes to build up momentum for a clothesline or similar move. This one seemed easier, and my thought is that it would simply be a version of Springing Attack which can only be used if you take a turn to bounce off the ropes.

The third thing I was giving some thought to was how to model performing attacks from the top rope, from the top of a ladder, and etc. Is there a good way to gauge how much more damage something should do if an attack is performed from an elevated height onto an opponent?
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If anyone is curious, this is what I have written up so far for the game.

Each starting PC wrestler is 170 points with up to 45 in disadvantages. Up to 6 quirks could be taken at character creation; the amount of perks allowed is determined by the rules presented in Martial Arts. That is you can have 1 perk per 20 points spent on combat skills; 1 style perk per 10 points spent if you're trained in a style.

Instead of the Professional Wrestling style consisting of the skills listed in Martial Arts, it instead consists of the following: Brawling, Wrestling, and either Savoir-Faire (Face) or Savior-Faire (Heel.) I also required anyone wanting to be trained in this style to put at least one point into the Breakfall Technique to represent training in 'taking bumps.'

Savoir-Faire (Face) is the art of acting like a good guy. Savoir-Faire (Heel) is the art of acting like a bad guy. These are both different from the skills used to conduct an interview, but they are related. While performing a promo is the speaking portion of acting in character, the two savoir-faire skills help act in accordance with how a good/bad wrestling character should act. ...mannerisms, fan interaction, etc.

Depending upon a wrestler's rank in the roster, different amounts of either ablative or semi-ablative DR can be purchased with the tough skin limitation. The default rank for new characters doesn't cost anything, and someone at that rank can have up to 5 points of semi-ablative DR (w/ tough skin.) There are up to 5 ranks which can be purchased; each rank adds 1 to the amount of DR a wrestler is allowed to have. With 5 ranks available, that means DR caps out at 10. Rank also helps determine how much you get paid.

There is also a negative rank which can be purchased as a disadvantage called "Jobber." This disadvantage is worth -5 points, and someone at this rank can have up 5 ablative DR w/ the tough skin limitation. I really don't expect any of my players to choose this, but I wrote it up just in case. The intent behind this is to represent some of the no-name performers who are there simply to make the stars of the promotion look good.

I haven't completely settled on the details yet, but I plan on having the title belt convey some special powers to whomever is the champion. Currently, the most basic idea I have is that the title belt grants +2 DR. The idea behind the belt giving some kind of power is the idea of the "champions advantage" which is often talk about during pro-wrestling shows.

There are actually a few things I'm still in the process of tweaking. I've been honest with the players about it though. For most things, I have a pretty good idea of how I want the rules to work, but there are a few areas in which I'm not entirely sure how things should work to best portray what I'm trying to portray. As the game progresses, I'll make adjustments as necessary. For the time being, I'm doing my best to eyeball things while using Martial Arts and the Action! series as guidelines.

I'm trying to work on some sort of 'spot' system. The idea behind it is that sometimes unexpected things happen. The referee accidentally gets knocked out; the power generator for the arena blows, and all manner of other crazy things. It's abstract and gimmicky, but that's kind of the point behind the idea. The trick is that I don't necessarily want it to happen all the time. I'm considering allowing players to spend a CP to draw from some sort of deck or roll on table or something to make an event happen. By default, an event wouldn't favor either participant in a match, but they could bid CP to gain control of the narrative. This idea is partially inspired by Gloom and partially inspired by GURPS Impulse Buys. If I can't figure out a good way to do it, I may just drop the idea, but I like the theory behind it for the time being.

[aesir23]

Have you tried building some test characters according to your parameters?

I ask because 170 points seems quite low for what should be over-the-top characters with very high physical stats.

[JCurwen3]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I haven't completely settled on the details yet, but I plan on having the title belt convey some special powers to whomever is the champion. Currently, the most basic idea I have is that the title belt grants +2 DR. The idea behind the belt giving some kind of power is the idea of the "champions advantage" which is often talk about during pro-wrestling shows.

Consider things like Hard to Subdue, Hard to Kill, Fearlessness, and IT:DR (among others) for the "champion's advantage" as well. Traits like these might be good for some of the higher "ranks" as well, with their opposites perhaps for negative ranks.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by aesir23

Have you tried building some test characters according to your parameters?

I ask because 170 points seems quite low for what should be over-the-top characters with very high physical stats.

I have. I'll admit, I have considered giving a few more points, but I don't currently seem too far off from what I have in mind for starting wrestlers. Looking over the PCs that have been made so far, the average seems to be around 14 for ST, 12 for DX, and 12 for HT. Some individuals have higher or lower in certain areas. Still, I'm considering bumping it up higher.

To some extent, I wanted the learning of techniques to be more prominent so as to keep with the idea that wrestlers typically learn special and/or trademark moves. I didn't want it to be too easy to simply raise base attributes and be good at everything. (That was also somewhat addressed by me giving a rough guideline of 15 being the skill cap for starting wrestlers. I was somewhat lenient with the cap if given a good reason for why someone would be especially skilled in a certain area.)

Also, keep in mind, that is the point total for starting characters. I plan to allow characters to invest money in training (to get better at skills,) work out (to get stronger,) and various other things. Part of the campaign premise is climbing the ranks of the organization the PCs will be part of. There are NPCs who are currently stronger or more skilled than some of the PCs currently are. On the other end of the spectrum, there are also NPCs who are obviously weaker or not as skilled as the PCs.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

In particular, one of the most common moves is the "Irish Whip." The basic idea is that you grab the opponent's arm and propel them into the ring ropes. They then recoil off of the ropes and involuntarily run back toward you -at which time you clobber them with some sort of high impact move. I'm having some trouble figuring out how to model that as a technique.

The first part of what the guy does here in this video is an Irish Whip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwuRk917hU4

My initial thought was to make attempting it some sort of contest between ST or possibly Wrestling skill, but that it didn't really work out well when I ran a few test matches using NPCs.

First you have to put your victim in an arm lock. Having done that you throw him at the ropes. In professional wrestling he never resists this. Then it looks like actually a contest of your wrestling skill versus his DX to control where he bounces. If you get him to run past you, you can hit him and his only defense is to dodge (ducking down so the blow doesn't hit). If you misjudge the throw, then he just runs up to you and punches you in the head.
If he dodges then he runs past you and then bounces off the opposite and can attack you.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Then it looks like actually a contest of your wrestling skill versus his DX to control where he bounces.

Another possible alternative (unlikely but possible) is for the defender to choose to oppose attackers wrestling skill with his IQ...

I was thinking of 2 countermoves in particular:

1 he gets whipped towards the ropes and huggs the top rope with both arms...thus no bounceback into the attack

2 he drops into a slide and chooses to slide under the ropes, off the apron and (if he is acrobatic enough) onto his feet on the arena floor.

An interesting build could be done with somewhat lesser physical stats but an above average IQ and then picking things like Tactics (Ring), Fast Talk, Acting (handy for fooling near blind refs). Also some of the better Martial Arts techniques can be IQ and/or Will based...

Higher IQ can also help one learn faster...

YMMV...but I would peg the Nature Boy at an above average IQ...

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Another possible alternative (unlikely but possible) is for the defender to choose to oppose attackers wrestling skill with his IQ...

I was thinking of 2 countermoves in particular:

1 he gets whipped towards the ropes and huggs the top rope with both arms...thus no bounceback into the attack

2 he drops into a slide and chooses to slide under the ropes, off the apron and (if he is acrobatic enough) onto his feet on the arena floor.

An interesting build could be done with somewhat lesser physical stats but an above average IQ and then picking things like Tactics (Ring), Fast Talk, Acting (handy for fooling near blind refs). Also some of the better Martial Arts techniques can be IQ and/or Will based...

Higher IQ can also help one learn faster...

YMMV...but I would peg the Nature Boy at an above average IQ...

Interesting things to consider...


High IQ is actually the route one of the players went. He went with less ST and DX than some of the other guys (which is actually what brought the average down,) but he went with high IQ and some skills that will help him cheat. He spent a few of his points on an ally to help distract the referee and generally aid in skirting around the rules of the ring.

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

The third thing I was giving some thought to was how to model performing attacks from the top rope, from the top of a ladder, and etc. Is there a good way to gauge how much more damage something should do if an attack is performed from an elevated height onto an opponent?

It's just your regular damage (but using the Attack From Above technique), unless you're using some kind of special technique that only works from above and does extra damage, such as Elbow Drop, or you're high enough up that your Falling Velocity is effectively higher than your normal Move and you're doing some kind of Slam-based attack (such as Drop Kick).

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

Instead of the Professional Wrestling style consisting of the skills listed in Martial Arts, it instead consists of the following: Brawling, Wrestling, and either Savoir-Faire (Face) or Savior-Faire (Heel.)

We just used the Pro-Wrestling style as-written in my wrestling game and I thought it worked well. Everybody had Brawling Art and Wrestling Art, with the Style perk available that skill-subs any technique to Wrestling Art. I did use a house rule that stated that any attack made at -3 for real damage on Brawling Art or Wrestling Art would still look completely awesome (player gets to describe it) if the character made the roll by 3 (ie: made their unmodified Art roll), however, which is a little generous for a non-cinematic game, but kept things fun.

I encouraged "special moves" with a free hand on the Technique Mastery Perk. Almost everybody will have one if you let them.

Why break the Face and Heel roles down into separate skills? That makes people who do both buy it twice. Aren't they just different Performance specialties?

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I also required anyone wanting to be trained in this style to put at least one point into the Breakfall Technique to represent training in 'taking bumps.'

This is probably a good idea. The style write-up also includes a Perk that lets you buy Roll With Blow (Ring Only) in a realistic game.

Originally Posted by Johnny Angel

I'm trying to work on some sort of 'spot' system. The idea behind it is that sometimes unexpected things happen. The referee accidentally gets knocked out; the power generator for the arena blows, and all manner of other crazy things. It's abstract and gimmicky, but that's kind of the point behind the idea. The trick is that I don't necessarily want it to happen all the time. I'm considering allowing players to spend a CP to draw from some sort of deck or roll on table or something to make an event happen. By default, an event wouldn't favor either participant in a match, but they could bid CP to gain control of the narrative. This idea is partially inspired by Gloom and partially inspired by GURPS Impulse Buys. If I can't figure out a good way to do it, I may just drop the idea, but I like the theory behind it for the time being.

You could do that, but it seems like reinventing the wheel to me. If I wanted that sort of effect in the game, I'd just explain to everybody that, while the setting is going to run on realistic physics, injury rules, etc, I want it to reflect a wacky sort of Pro Wrestlingesque reality as far as soapy drama and unsupernatural-but-unlikely events go and am therefore allowing and encouraging certain appropriate traits such as Serendipity (possibly very limited), Weirdness Magnet, Unluckiness, etc.

[Johnny Angel]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

It's just your regular damage (but using the Attack From Above technique), unless you're using some kind of special technique that only works from above and does extra damage, such as Elbow Drop, or you're high enough up that your Falling Velocity is effectively higher than your normal Move and you're doing some kind of Slam-based attack (such as Drop Kick).



We just used the Pro-Wrestling style as-written in my wrestling game and I thought it worked well. Everybody had Brawling Art and Wrestling Art, with the Style perk available that skill-subs any technique to Wrestling Art. I did use a house rule that stated that any attack made at -3 for real damage on Brawling Art or Wrestling Art would still look completely awesome (player gets to describe it) if the character made the roll by 3 (ie: made their unmodified Art roll), however, which is a little generous for a non-cinematic game, but kept things fun.

I encouraged "special moves" with a free hand on the Technique Mastery Perk. Almost everybody will have one if you let them.

Why break the Face and Heel roles down into separate skills? That makes people who do both buy it twice. Aren't they just different Performance specialties?



This is probably a good idea. The style write-up also includes a Perk that lets you buy Roll With Blow (Ring Only) in a realistic game.



You could do that, but it seems like reinventing the wheel to me. If I wanted that sort of effect in the game, I'd just explain to everybody that, while the setting is going to run on realistic physics, injury rules, etc, I want it to reflect a wacky sort of Pro Wrestlingesque reality as far as soapy drama and unsupernatural-but-unlikely events go and am therefore allowing and encouraging certain appropriate traits such as Serendipity (possibly very limited), Weirdness Magnet, Unluckiness, etc.

I suppose so. It just seems like it should do something a little more than that. I'm considering giving a small damage boost. Alternatively, the top rope could allow for some of the more cinematic techniques such as springing attack and flying kick to be used.

For what I have in mind concerning what the skills will be used for and how they might benefit a character, having one skill which was all encompassing seemed a little too good. While that does mean being good at both requires buying a skill twice, it's still an easy skill. I felt that was an easy way to find the middle ground I wanted between one all encompassing skill being a little too good and making it too expensive to be good at both too much of an investment. Currently, it is possible to be good at both, but -as with everything else in the game- it requires some amount of effort. In a sense, I suppose I saw Heel and Face as techniques, but it seemed easier to explain to the players (some of whom aren't that familiar with GURPS) that the two were just different skills. It was partially a choice made for ease of play.

I did express that things like weirdness magnet and similar traits were allowed. While I am treating wrestling as real, I am also treating the soap opera aspect of it as also being real. The vision I have is like cross between 80s WWF and 90s ECW. I want the gimmicks and the characters that might be a little cartoony, but with a more serious and real edge.

The reason I considered something like a 'spot mechanic' (I need a better name for it) was because I want the wrestling universe to have a little bit of a mind all its own. I am going to allow luck, serendipity, and various other things, but those are centered around an individual character. I wanted some sort of way to illustrate that the wrestling universe itself is unpredictable, but it's unpredictable in a way which is neutral by default. It's possible for a superstar with a lot of momentum to sway that neutrality into something positive for himself, and important shows such as ppvs might be times when the wrestleverse is more active.