Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-08-2009, 05:54 AM   #11
sgtcallistan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chatham, Kent, England
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwalker View Post
Actually between the various radio guidance beams (Knickebein, Y-Beams etc) and Ground-Imagine radar (H2S) the precision of bombing was quite nice late in the war. And since the bombs either aimed at moving targets (Ships, tanks) or area targets (Industrie) I don't think GPS would have changed much.
====================
As for a useful technology: Aircraft-rated Gas-Turbine engines. They would have turned helicopters from "somewhat useful" to "let's use them" allowing i.e for MedEvac, Anti-tank missions in adverse weather (The germans where playing around with a "combat" helicopter based on the Flettner design) and sub-hunting from the deck of a converted merchant
Well-developed and small turbines would have revolutionised jet power.
They would probably have needed vastly increased resaearch and development, and for years before the conflict began.
An alternate universe where governments and defence procurements are rational would probably be required.
Helicopters are quite effective on piston power; both Korea and Vietnam wars employed Sikorsky designs using radial-piston powerplants very effectively. Many trainer helicopters still use piston power.

On the bomber guidance beams: yes, the X, Y-Gerat, Knickebein (mostly early-WWII), the later GEE, OBOE, the lesser known 'Jay' and later LORAN systems all aid navigation even in darkness and no visibility, but do not hit targets.
H2S and later ground-mapping radars did aid targetting, but even in good conditions, the B-29s raiding Japan had switched to area firebombing. They could hit the targets using their version of H2S, but manufacturing was reputedly too dispersed to offer many pin-point or large factory targets. Killing or 'unhousing' the workers was probably easier.

Attempts were made with weapons that home on radio/radar sources, but defences are simple (the aerial/antenna is some distance from the installation, false/decoy transmissions).

Something that acts independent of jamming, something that knows where the target is, that would be revolutionary, and very hard to combat.
Such as trained pigeons pecking at a target on a screen (which guides the bomb), such as pilots flying their bomb directly into the target, such as incendiary bats roosting in wooden houses.
All improve targetting, all have their own problems.
sgtcallistan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 06:11 AM   #12
Randyman
 
Join Date: May 2009
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtcallistan View Post
Naturally. Post-WWII is a big region. I would not ignore high-tech sent from the future; it's been done in movies. Even alien flying saucers found by Indiana Jones.
Satellite GPS systems aiding one combatant would probably be undetectable by the others.
'We captured this new radio-beam unit on a wrecked enemy aircraft, it's using no wavelengths we can reach; the boys in SI.10 have looked it over and don't even recognise the parts. Latest news is these things are turning up in tanks as well...'
OK. One thing at a time.

1. Indiana Jones found an extradimensional craft; it is explicitly stated as such in the movie. (Yes, time is a dimension; no, time is not the dimension referred to in the movie.)

2. I was assuming that the discussion called for one of the WWII combatants making a breakthrough. In the time travel scenario, GPS is not simply a matter of a time traveler providing a single breakthrough, but of the entire network of GPS satellites being either recreated and launched (requiring the creation or proision of sufficient launch capacity to do so) or transported in toto from the future. In either case, this would be a huge undertaking, even from the point of view of a time traveling meddler. There are far easier ways to "jump the tech" and produce greater effects.
__________________
"Despite (GURPS) reputation for realism and popularity with simulationists, the numbers are and always have been assessed in the service of drama." - Kromm

"(GURPS) isn't a game but a toolkit for building games, and the GM needs to use it intelligently" - Kromm
Randyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 07:01 AM   #13
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Come to think of it, a beam riding V1 tuned to British radar wavelengths could have been very useful to the Germans... a sort of PLARM...
The Colonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2009, 09:53 AM   #14
Darkwalker
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Agreed on the advances in jet engines

IIRC the two main problems with pistons are the cooling during hoover and the size/weight of the engine. Compare the Sikorski H-34 and the Bell UH-1 looking at the nose of the H34 and the engine capsule on the to of the UH-1

As for the navigation systems they actually did hit targets since at least some of them generated a "release bomb" signal, sometimes even releasing the bombs on automatic.

And GPS isn't Jam-Proof either. The signal is there, basically all the time so it will likely be detected, being omni-directional does not help either. In our times ARMs prevent jamming but in WWII that is still a think to come.

Separating antenna and the radio, decoy transmitters etc. are an old hat, used those stuff back in the 1980s in the German Territorials. And given that Direction Finders (HF-DF/Huff-Duff in example) did exist in WWII I guess some of that stuff (or a fully mobile radio system) was used even back then by some commanders. The Brits did use a separation Antenna and Electronics approach on their Chain-Home stations IIRC.

Sidenote: The germans DID get it right late in the Battle of Britain going for the buildings and installation but Fatboy called that off.

=================================

Another useful thing: (Computer) Numerical Controlled Lathe. The increase in production without the need of more highly skilled mechanics will benefit the Germans the most due to their combination of HighTech Weapons and small population base (The Sowjets are lower tech, the Western Allies have the US manpower)

Nuclear Fission Reactors: IIRC power-producing reactors are a post-WWII development. Imagine the Germans building a Typ XXI submarine with a "Heisenberg Engine" instead of batteries.
__________________
15 minutes after Solomani and Vagr met, a Solomani started calling them Lassie.

15 seconds after the Vagr realised who Lassie was, the Solomani died.

Last edited by Darkwalker; 07-08-2009 at 10:00 AM.
Darkwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2009, 05:57 AM   #15
sgtcallistan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chatham, Kent, England
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyman View Post
OK. One thing at a time.
1. Indiana Jones found an extradimensional craft; it is explicitly stated as such in the movie. (Yes, time is a dimension; no, time is not the dimension referred to in the movie.)
2. I was assuming that the discussion called for one of the WWII combatants making a breakthrough. In the time travel scenario, GPS is not simply a matter of a time traveler providing a single breakthrough, but of the entire network of GPS satellites being either recreated and launched (requiring the creation or proision of sufficient launch capacity to do so) or transported in toto from the future. In either case, this would be a huge undertaking, even from the point of view of a time traveling meddler. There are far easier ways to "jump the tech" and produce greater effects.
1: yep, I saw and heard the movie. Flying saucers tend to be post-1947 in recorded history, but people see and use the idea of them in all kinds of interesting ways. If the mad old scientist said 'they come from another dimension', I won't disagree. Being connected to the aliens to learn the truth of this didn't do them much good...
'Sufficiently advanced technology' would have an enormous influence (if understandable and understood) from wherever and however it arrived, I feel.

2: Agreed; a matter of POV.
I was assuming higher TL devices as naturally being from a later time, and let my imagination rip.
My limited knowledge of RAF bombing during WWII led me to think that the actual late-WWII trend toward precision attack (overtaken by nuclear weapons that didn't need to be accurate) would benefit by something along the lines of GPS.
If a new technology is being transmitted through time (an unspoken assumtion on my part) then satellites, immediate availability, strategic suprise, etc. all arrive as well, as the planning is all, and my assumed 'villains of the future' (the space-conquering Universal Reich?), if they do it at all, should go the whole hog.

Sorry for my lack of clarity; I don't edit my thoughts until written down.
sgtcallistan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2009, 06:04 AM   #16
sgtcallistan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chatham, Kent, England
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
Come to think of it, a beam riding V1 tuned to British radar wavelengths could have been very useful to the Germans... a sort of PLARM...
I understand one of the purposes of the V1 flying bomb was to home on sources of radio / radar transmission.
The extra equipment made those bombs heavier, and harder to make fly the range required, possibly due to many small course corrections.
I have found only passing mention of attempts to do this (RV Jones' book 'The Mare's Nest' for one, if I recall correctly) and I think the Germans may have abandoned the idea after the BBC dispersed it's transmissions fro Alexandra Palace to many antennae around the country.

Have found mention (Osprey Books' V-Weapon sites book) of V1's being set to make a turn after launch, both to disguise the laucher, and to make launch sites more flexible; this seems to have only been used during the last months, from Germany itself.
sgtcallistan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2009, 06:08 AM   #17
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

And thermobarics weapons ... I understand the flakwaffe experimented with them in the hope of using them to break up bomber streams but had difficultly with fuel dispersal.
I can see that making a huge difference if they ever made it work.
The Colonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2009, 06:21 AM   #18
sgtcallistan
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Chatham, Kent, England
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwalker View Post
Agreed on the advances in jet engines
IIRC the two main problems with pistons are the cooling during hoover and the size/weight of the engine. Compare the Sikorski H-34 and the Bell UH-1 looking at the nose of the H34 and the engine capsule on the to of the UH-1

As for the navigation systems they actually did hit targets since at least some of them generated a "release bomb" signal, sometimes even releasing the bombs on automatic.

snip
Another useful thing: (Computer) Numerical Controlled Lathe. The increase in production without the need of more highly skilled mechanics will benefit the Germans the most due to their combination of HighTech Weapons and small population base (The Sowjets are lower tech, the Western Allies have the US manpower)
Nuclear Fission Reactors: IIRC power-producing reactors are a post-WWII development. Imagine the Germans building a Typ XXI submarine with a "Heisenberg Engine" instead of batteries.
Yes, the radio beams did command bomb release (especially the Y-Gerat); I suggest that this is normally used when the target cannot be seen, and so relies upon careful calibration of the beams, acurately surveyed maps, etc.
A system independent of that (visual sighting and aiming of the corretly recognised target, something like GPS that uses much more accurate surveying and location of targets) would avoid the 'attacking blind' factor.

A later radar bombing system (such as the developed H2S system employed by RAF Vulcans druing the Falklands business) had the benefits of satellite updates, navigational beacons during the early part of the flight, ground radio beacons near the target, with the addition of a reasonably high quality image of the target area from their search radar.
This last item permits the last-minute objective improvement of aim I suggest as being useful in accurate, as opposed to indiscriminate bombing.

I like your idea for the nuclear engine for typ XXI U-boot.
Such submarines would have been revolutionary, given a sub big enough to keep a crew able an healthy.
They could have been at least as widely-travelled and as threatening as the famed pocket battleships, with the added quality of invisibility.

The automatic control of manufacturing often turns up in SF novel and stories written about this time.
GURPS: War Against the Machines; robo-factories produce the weapons, then robots to use them, then the two robot armies replace humans.
Find the bunker that contains the the off-switch, quick!
sgtcallistan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2009, 08:19 AM   #19
Darkwalker
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
And thermobarics weapons ... I understand the flakwaffe experimented with them in the hope of using them to break up bomber streams but had difficultly with fuel dispersal.
I can see that making a huge difference if they ever made it work.
The used coal-dust for most tests since coal-dust explosions where a common problem in german mines. Some tests used CH4 since those explosions are the other common cause of dead miners. So both where "known good".

===================

Another useful thing would be an Inertial Navigation System. The current units are quite rugged and small and give good accuracy. Useful for submarines, planes and artillery.

====================

Nuclear driven XXI -> USS Nautilus ;) While almost twice the size her general looks/layout are quite close to the XXI.
__________________
15 minutes after Solomani and Vagr met, a Solomani started calling them Lassie.

15 seconds after the Vagr realised who Lassie was, the Solomani died.

Last edited by Darkwalker; 07-09-2009 at 08:22 AM.
Darkwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2009, 04:28 PM   #20
Flyndaran
Untagged
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
Default Re: What would benefit from advanced battery technology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Randyman View Post
OK. One thing at a time.

1. Indiana Jones found an extradimensional craft; it is explicitly stated as such in the movie. (Yes, time is a dimension; no, time is not the dimension referred to in the movie.)

....
You talk as if there was a fourth Jones movie. I pity any world like that. A strange horrifying place in which nuclear bombs could be blocked by household refridgerators.
Flyndaran is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
high-tech, wwii

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.