[Basic] Skill of the week: Animal Handling

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Phil, you're missing the point. Using your interpretation, the example character with IQ 15 and DX 10 and Animal Handling at IQ+3 would thus, in your opinion, have Riding at not only 15, but at relative level DX+5.

So, even without spending a single point on Riding, he would be at skill 15 vs. skill 14 riding expert in a test of relative skill level, i.e. which one had spent more time studying Riding, regardless of natural talent or ability.

And as malloyd points out, if he had to make an IQ-based Riding skill check, your interpretion of the rules would give him skill 20, i.e. IQ+5, which is higher than he'd have if he'd have spent the points on Riding in the first place and not used the default rules.

Defaults from absolute skill levels do not work alongside rules about relative skill levels.

Absoluteness of Skill level defaults seem like a red herring, and stepping away from the way things work seems likely to break things in less-obvious places.

Consider Stealth. It defaults to DX-5 and IQ-5.
So, say that Doctor Manhattan (DX10, IQ20) is sneaking somewhere with the Comedian. He has a default Stealth level of 15, for IQ-5 or DX+5. The skill defaults to an absolute attribute level. Being smarter lets him be better at stealthiness, because his stealthiness level depends on absolute level of IQ. If you make defaults relative, then Manhattan wouldn't be able to benefit from his high IQ.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

What does an IQ-based Riding (Horses) roll mean? Knowing something about horses-as-they-are-ridden, apparently. The idea that he'll be as good at this as a fairly easy Animal Handling (Horses) task (a roll vs. that skill at +2) hardly strikes me as a grossly weird artefact of the system. It's a mildly interesting edge case, but hardly one to lose sleep or re-write the rules over.

And if he becomes lamed, for a -4 to DX, will his IQ-based Riding increase by four skill levels?

That's the logical consequence of doing it your way. Animal Handling at IQ+3 or 18 becomes Riding at 15 or DX+5 while he has DX 10 or DX+9 if he has DX 6. IQ-based Riding, say to select a good mount, thus becomes IQ+9 or 24 for the lame riding master who has never ridden before.

And this is problematical because IQ-based Riding is at a much higher level this way than if the character had spent all his points on Riding in the first place.

Low Attributes shouldn't give bonuses. Anywhere.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Absoluteness of Skill level defaults seem like a red herring, and stepping away from the way things work seems likely to break things in less-obvious places.

Consider Stealth. It defaults to DX-5 and IQ-5.
So, say that Doctor Manhattan (DX10, IQ20) is sneaking somewhere with the Comedian. He has a default Stealth level of 15, for IQ-5 or DX+5. The skill defaults to an absolute attribute level. Being smarter lets him be better at stealthiness, because his stealthiness level depends on absolute level of IQ. If you make defaults relative, then Manhattan wouldn't be able to benefit from his high IQ.

In this case, it seems pretty straightforward to me that Dr. Manhattan has Stealth at IQ-5. If he wants to improve the skill instead of relying on that default, he has to do it by basing it on DX or at least taking the Perk Attribute Substitution (IQ-based Stealth).

And if the GM should specifically call for a DX-based Stealth check, Dr. Manhattan rolls against skill 5, because he doesn't actually have any level of Stealth, just a default that is useful for tasks when the GM does not specify an Attribute.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

In this case, it seems pretty straightforward to me that Dr. Manhattan has Stealth at IQ-5. If he wants to improve the skill instead of relying on that default, he has to do it by basing it on DX or at least taking the Perk Attribute Substitution (IQ-based Stealth).

And if the GM should specifically call for a DX-based Stealth check, Dr. Manhattan rolls against skill 5, because he doesn't actually have any level of Stealth, just a default that is useful for tasks when the GM does not specify an Attribute.

But he's not learning IQ-based Stealth when he spends points: he buys DX-based Stealth with the advantage of points saved from a default.

Originally Posted by B173, Improving Skills
from Default

If your default level in a skill is high enough that you would normally have to pay points for that level, you may improve the skill past its default level by paying only the difference in point costs between your new level and your default level.

He's saving points on raising his Stealth in the same way as someone with DX 10 and Guns (Rifle) 20 saves points by buying Guns (Pistol) to 19 thanks to the fact that Pistol defaults to Rifle-2 (or was it -4?).

[kmunoz]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Yep. Assuming that he has the IQ to make this a worthwhile deal, he is extremely smart, and has applied a lot of that intelligence to knowing how to work with horses. He hasn't "studied Riding", but he's studied horses, with extreme effectiveness thanks to his nigh-cinematic brainpower. As a result, when he sits on a horse, it does exactly what he wants it to do from moment to moment, making him functionally as good a rider as a lot of ordinary unremarkable schlubs who've had to slog for years to reach that level of skill.

(They may think it's unfair, but they're just not as smart or as intensively trained in understanding horses as him. Sucks to be them.)

Talk to any decently skilled equestrian and they'll tell you in no uncertain terms that 90% of Riding is, in fact, Animal Handling. That is, the majority of what makes a good rider is a highly skilled knowledge of horses, how they think, how they behave, what they need and what they can do - and what the rider must do physically in order to facilitate the horse's abilities. The rest is just not falling off.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That's the logical consequence of doing it your way.

It's not "my" way. It's the rules-aw-written way, as confirmed by the line editor.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Animal Handling at IQ+3 or 18 becomes Riding at 15 or DX+5 while he has DX 10 or DX+9 if he has DX 6. IQ-based Riding, say to select a good mount, thus becomes IQ+9 or 24 for the lame riding master who has never ridden before.

Has this especially baroque artefact of the rules-as-written ever actually arisen in play, for you or anyone else?

Originally Posted by Icelander

In this case, it seems pretty straightforward to me that Dr. Manhattan has Stealth at IQ-5. If he wants to improve the skill instead of relying on that default, he has to do it by basing it on DX or at least taking the Perk Attribute Substitution (IQ-based Stealth).

But the rules specifically say that you buy defaulted skills up from the default level; p. B173. (Quite right too - otherwise, Dr Manhattan would have Stealth-15 if he didn't spend any points on it, but Stealth-9 if he spent one point on it.) It doesn't say anything about faffing about with Relative Skill Levels at that point.

Look, if you don't like the rules as written, feel free to house-rule this. That's fine with me. But don't claim that the rules as written are equivalent to your house rules.

[Anders]

I wonder of one of the mods could split this off to a more properly named thread. It's an interesting discussion, but maybe people aren't participating because they don't know it's going on.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Would he also have relative skill level DX+5 in Riding?

Not in my book.

Okay, yes... technically it is at DX+5, but that's not how I'd record on a sheet. It's a defaulted skill, it gets recorded as a default.

So that despite not having studied the skill at all, but simply because of a high IQ and a default, his relative skill level was higher than characters who had spent 20 points on Riding?

No. He doesn't have the skill at "DX+5" regardless of what the skill level is at. He has it at Animal Handling -3. So if it floats to IQ, it should be at either IQ -3, or more appropriately (as Animal Handling is an IQ skill)Animal Handling -3.

Animal Handling is what it defaults from, that should be it's "normalized stat".

[kirbwarrior]

Maybe I'm missing something in here, but to see if I'm understanding it;

DX10, IQ20, Stealth defaults to both at -5
I'm allowed to have 15 skill for trying to be stealthy. This happens to line up with DX+5 but that's either coincidence or an arbitrary summation.
However, I am allowed to buy up skill from 15. To have 16 skill, that would be DX+6, and thus cost me 4pts. Now I actually have it at DX+6

Here's the pinch; Some effect sends all my points I have in IQ over to (say) Charisma. I don't have DX+6 Stealth, but DX+1, correct?