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Old 12-09-2017, 03:47 AM   #11
Gollum
 
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

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Originally Posted by Flyndaran View Post
It does penalize them by making it act as if it were a disadvantage. Being more perceptive and willful than the norm is not a disadvantage. So what if you're very intelligent? But that's a discussion that just goes around and around.

It's a game mechanic that has no relation to reality whatsoever, and every game will have some.
Yes. As you said, it's a bit strange that being more perceptive is an advantage, being more willful is an advantage but being more intelligent (without being more perceptive and willful) becomes a disadvantage ...

But the problem vanishes as soon as you don't consider anymore the disadvantage limit as a set in stone rule, but for what it really is: an option, that is, a mere hint.

The GM just glance at IQ [x20], Will [x5] and Per [x5] together rather than just one after the other and that's it! The problem disappears.

A lot of rules don't check reality in GURPS (as well as in other roleplaying games, as you noted it). But those are problems only if there is no GM.

GURPS is not a self correcting computer RPG, it is a game designed to be played with a GM. So, as soon as the GM can understand the rules by the spirit, with a little flexibility, most of the problems do vanish.
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Old 12-09-2017, 03:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

You start to agree then completely contradict yourself. That's what aggravates me most about this topic.
People will either mock me for wanting a "simulationist game" all while saying that it's an optional rule, so it doesn't matter, AND that it's perfectly reasonable gaming feature. Pick a side, please. I may disagree, but at least pick a position.
As an aside, every rule is optional. This isn't tournament rules for a professional sport.
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Old 12-09-2017, 04:48 AM   #13
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

Sorry for having been so unclear.

I didn't want at all to mock you for wanting a simulationist game. In my humble opinion, GURPS is one, and that is why we love it.

Furthermore, I didn't want to write something that can looks like a self-contradiction. I just wanted to bring some nuances to my words ... The problem is that it is something very hard for me, because English is not my mother tongue and, so, if I can understand and use a quite extensive vocabulary, I often lack the usual turn of phrases ... Then, I don't always write what I really want to mean.

My point was:
  1. Yes, I do agree with you. That is strange. That strangeness is due to the fact that Will and Per are basically linked to IQ. All roleplaying games don't do that. GURPS does. Usually, it is a good feature: most fictional high IQ heroes also have a high Per and a high Will: Sherlock Holmes, Gandalf ... So, it makes character creation more quick. Do you want a usual genus? Just take a high IQ ... Now, in some cases, that good features becomes a little problem, indeed (more nuanced characters, animals ...).
  2. There is still a way to get rid of that problem and it is very simple to do.
  3. And that solution is not a contradiction to the rules because Disadvantage limit is not a rule, just an option.

I perfectly know that all rules are optional in GURPS. But some rules are still even more optional than others, because they are straightaway labeled as options. Disadvantage limit is one of them. So, it is only an very optional option. What I wanted to mean here is to use it only when it helps.

I hope I made my words more clear now. ... And I do apologize if I was rude or sounded aggressive. I absolutely didn't want.
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:27 AM   #14
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

Disadvantage limits generally apply only to PCs, so if you want a 100 point NPC with 100 points of disadvantages, feel free. My campaigns tend to start at 200 points, so I do not have any problems limiting my PCs to 50% (100 points of negative traits, with no single Disadvantage exceeding half of the limit). I also tend to limit Attributes to 80%, Secondary Characteristics to 40%, Advantages to 60%, and Skills/Techniques to 60% (with no more than half the limit applied to a single Attribute, Advantage, Seconday Characteristic, Advantages, or Skill/Technique group).

The point of such limits to prevent players from min-maxing to system. If you have a 200 point game, you do not want an IQ 20 character running around with Per 8 and Will 8 because they will dominate every intellectual exercise and can depend on the other PCs to cover their weaknesses. It also creates more balanced, interesting, and realistic characters (an IQ 14 character is often better than an IQ 20 character because genius is more interesting than perfection).
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Old 12-09-2017, 09:02 AM   #15
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

There are times when I have to bite my tongue and keep my responses relatively pithy. This is one of them.

I could ask questions about the design philosophy behind GURPS and why things were done the way they were, but the simple answer to the original poster's question is this:

There are no rules regarding how a player spends character points to improve his character beyond that of what a given attribute costs to raise, or what an advantage costs to purchase, or even whether or not any given advantage can be purchased after the start of game play. Which advantages are genetic and incapable of being altered after the start of play? Which advantages can be purchased after the start such as perhaps wealth?

Does anyone here believe they've met intelligent people who are lacking in the will department? Have we met people we'd describe as book smart but lacking in wisdom? Are there smart people out there whose hearing is normal - no better nor worse than the average person pulled off the streets nearby? Could Albert Einstein hear sounds with almost animal like discernment (assuming say, an IQ of 14, was Albert Einstein's hearing rated at VERY high compared against the average human?)

So - that's your answer. Nothing rules as written stipulates that when a player spends points on improving his character, that IQ can not be raised without also raising perception and will at the same time. Nothing says how much a player can improve his character's IQ once game play starts. In fact? Nothing says that a player can't raise his IQ past 20 - although the writers caution the reader (and GM for that matter) that...

"Most characters have attributes in the 1-20 range, and most normal humans have scores in the 8-12 range. Scores above 20 are possible but typically reserved for godlike beings – ask the GM before buying such a value."

Being able to start with an IQ of 21 isn't even a house rule - if the GM desires it, it is his right to be able to have it in his games (or rule against it).

I guess in the long run, it all depends on what the GM is willing to accept as being possible within his campaign. How much would you expect a human being's IQ to change once the body has hit maturity? How much would you expect the physique of the body to change once it hits maturity? Even something as simple as extra hit points in GURPS has the suggestion (not rule!) of...

"In a realistic campaign, the GM should not allow HP to vary by more than ±30% of ST; e.g., a ST 10 character could have between 7 and 13 HP. Nonhumans and supers are not subject to this limit."

But a GM can ignore that and allow up to say, 40%. He can just as easily say "20%" or even "10%".

Me? I'd likely limit such gains to "you can vary your physical attributes by +1 after maturity - ie, the start of the campaign" through character points spent on improvement, but that's it." ST (Strength) on the other hand, has been shown to be improvable through weight training and/or hard use. Agility/Dexterity has been shown to improve a little bit by means of physical training as well. But would you honestly expect to see an 18 year old boy with average DX, eventually attain a DX of 20 through normal physical improvement? I'd guess (at least from my perspective) the answer is no.

But - that's digressing from the original thrust of this thread... the answer to that original poster's question is "No, the advantage/disadvantage rules and limits no long apply once the game has started in the sense you ask about divorcing WILL and PER from IQ."
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:00 AM   #16
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

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Originally Posted by hal View Post
So - that's your answer. Nothing rules as written stipulates that when a player spends points on improving his character, that IQ can not be raised without also raising perception and will at the same time. Nothing says how much a player can improve his character's IQ once game play starts. In fact? Nothing says that a player can't raise his IQ past 20 - although the writers caution the reader (and GM for that matter) that...
This is true, but the rules do broadly imply that doing so would cost 20 points and amount to kneecapping yourself. You don't gain, or one might presume save, points by picking up Disadvantages after character creation!

It's trivial for a GM to allow buying a bundle of traits that includes Disadvantages together, like IQ*, but it's not really encouraged or suggested by the books.
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:22 AM   #17
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

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It seems to me it should, though my group has had a GM who did not have it do so. One of my players is asking me now and my first instinct is yes it dose.
If you use the optional rule of a disadvantage limit, then the official wording of that optional rule says that yes, reduced secondary characteristics count against the limit. Anything with negative point cost does, regardless of what pigeonhole you put it in.

(And yes, we could just as easily have not made Perception an explicit secondary characteristic and instead had an Alertness advantage and Dullness disadvantage, much as in GURPS Third Edition. Then the question probably wouldn't come up.)

This has nothing to do with modeling reality – it's about keeping character designs under control. Most groups find characters with, say, IQ 20 [200], Will 10 [-50], and Per 10 [-50] for 100 points a bit broken, as they become IQ-based skill monsters who blow Talents out of the water and generally make the game less fun. There are two checks against that: (1) "You cannot raise Will/Per past 20, or lower it by more than 4, without GM permission," and (2) "A disadvantage is anything with a negative cost, including low attributes, reduced social status, and all the specific disabilities listed in Chapter 3." As both explicitly give the GM freedom to ignore them, you can do away with them if you think they're a bad model of reality – or at least how reality works in your campaign.

If I had had greater freedom to break compatibility in the design of GURPS Fourth Edition, I would have introduced additional primary attributes. I like three physical (probably still ST, DX, HT) and three mental (perhaps IQ, Will, Per, but no guarantees . . . IQ, Will, Charisma would solve more problems). Maybe even four physical (ST, HT, and split DX: whole-body Agility for things like Dancing, Escape, Light Walk, and Stealth; the more traditional meaning of Dexterity for Filch, Leatherworking, Pickpocket, Sewing, etc.; and let combat skills float depending on what you're doing) and four mental (IQ, Will, Per, Charisma for sure). Then the former secondary characteristics would just start at 10 and be raised or lowered independently, so we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Except that we would, because HP, FP, and Basic Speed would most likely still be figured. And we could have fun debates about what they ought to be based on. In my eight-attribute scheme, for instance, I'd argue for (DX + Per)/4, because Per would no longer be a cheap adjunct bought up from IQ.
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Old 12-10-2017, 11:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
If you use the optional rule of a disadvantage limit, then the official wording of that optional rule says that yes, reduced secondary characteristics count against the limit. Anything with negative point cost does, regardless of what pigeonhole you put it in.

(And yes, we could just as easily have not made Perception an explicit secondary characteristic and instead had an Alertness advantage and Dullness disadvantage, much as in GURPS Third Edition. Then the question probably wouldn't come up.)

This has nothing to do with modeling reality – it's about keeping character designs under control. Most groups find characters with, say, IQ 20 [200], Will 10 [-50], and Per 10 [-50] for 100 points a bit broken, as they become IQ-based skill monsters who blow Talents out of the water and generally make the game less fun. There are two checks against that: (1) "You cannot raise Will/Per past 20, or lower it by more than 4, without GM permission," and (2) "A disadvantage is anything with a negative cost, including low attributes, reduced social status, and all the specific disabilities listed in Chapter 3." As both explicitly give the GM freedom to ignore them, you can do away with them if you think they're a bad model of reality – or at least how reality works in your campaign.

If I had had greater freedom to break compatibility in the design of GURPS Fourth Edition, I would have introduced additional primary attributes. I like three physical (probably still ST, DX, HT) and three mental (perhaps IQ, Will, Per, but no guarantees . . . IQ, Will, Charisma would solve more problems). Maybe even four physical (ST, HT, and split DX: whole-body Agility for things like Dancing, Escape, Light Walk, and Stealth; the more traditional meaning of Dexterity for Filch, Leatherworking, Pickpocket, Sewing, etc.; and let combat skills float depending on what you're doing) and four mental (IQ, Will, Per, Charisma for sure). Then the former secondary characteristics would just start at 10 and be raised or lowered independently, so we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Except that we would, because HP, FP, and Basic Speed would most likely still be figured. And we could have fun debates about what they ought to be based on. In my eight-attribute scheme, for instance, I'd argue for (DX + Per)/4, because Per would no longer be a cheap adjunct bought up from IQ.
Thanks Kromm. I am using a disadvantage limit so this answers my question pretty well.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:21 AM   #19
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
This is true, but the rules do broadly imply that doing so would cost 20 points and amount to kneecapping yourself. You don't gain, or one might presume save, points by picking up Disadvantages after character creation!

It's trivial for a GM to allow buying a bundle of traits that includes Disadvantages together, like IQ*, but it's not really encouraged or suggested by the books.
One of the points I almost made earlier, but largely stayed away from after Kromm weighed in was this...

Suppose you have a character built on 150 points, with 75 points in disadvantages? Further suppose, the player's character gets into a massive melee that results in the separation of the character's weapon hand from its arm? Is the GM bound to honor the "disadvantage limits" at that point in the game or does he say to himself "Well, the disadvantage limit is 75 points, and he already has that, so he can't have any new disadvantages" or does he simply state "Oh well, them's the breaks, and he's now got the original 75 he started with, and the additional -10 he gained in play?"

Let's take that philosophy a step further shall we? If the player originally took the one handed disadvantage, and manages to find a mystic who can heal his hand back to its original function. Is the player obligated to paying back the disadvantage points gained by the one hand disadvantage? Cross reference the issue of the second case where the player didn't gain disadvantage points for having one-handed as a result of game play, and also meets up with the same mystic who can heal his hand back to full functionality (ie regeneration or something of that nature)?

The rules are explicit in that any disadvantage points gained at character creation are paid back in full if rendered a moot point, while any disadvantages gained in play are not subject to the same "GM contract" if you will.

So, while "Broadly hinted at" is one thing, "broadly hinted against" is also one possible read based upon the rules as written. Which is why, the real answer is "it depends strictly upon the GM's ruling for their game".

Note too, that the authors went out of their way to suggest "in a realistic game" and even now, Krom hints at the fact that the rules could have leaned more heavily into "realism" and could have gone into 8 attributes as baseline instead of 4. Hell, even GURPS 3e was starting to lean into the direction of multiple different secondary attributes modifiable by specific advantages/disadvantages that in essence, created their own secondary stat that was customizable (ie variable off the original basic 4 stats of character creation). Point is? Some GM's treated secondary stats as genetic in nature (ie, how does one get eagle eyed after the start of game play, or for some, Magery is a stat that doesn't increase after game play save with wishes or divine intervention - while other GM's had no problem with allowing for increased magery after game play by simple character point expenditure on behalf of the player).

In the end? No two GM's are going to give the same ruling on even trivial things largely because the works of GURPS do not have every detail written in stone to that extent.

For those who want to observe some limit - I'd say "Go for it". For those who say "But logically, or realistically, there should be no such limit" I'd say are equally justified. In the end - there won't be any men-in-black to show up at your doorstep and confiscate your game materials because you don't adhere to some specific standard in your game. ;)
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Old 12-11-2017, 06:21 AM   #20
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Default Re: Dose Lowering Will or Per when raising IQ count against the disadvantage limit?

The disadvantage limit for campaigns represents the maximum bonus points gained during character creation for negative traits. Characters can have more disadvantages than the disadvantage limit during character creation, they just do not gain any bonus points for disadvantages beyond the limit, and they just lower their final point value after character creation as if they suffered an accident right after character creation. If they acquire more disadvantages during play, they do not receive bonus points, they just lower their point value.

Disadvantages always apply, they are just only worth taking during character creation. In my games, characters only pay to remove disadvantages that they received bonus points for during character creation. If they lost an arm during play but then regained the arm during play, they would only pay points for any positive traits associated with their new arm that they did not have after character creation. If they took blind during character creation for points and then regained their sight, they would have to pony up 50 points plus any points for any new positive traits associated with their new sight.
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