Making Melee viable vs future weapons.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

While I agree with the second half, I disagree with the first half, I missed Range shot will hit something unless you're in section more open than Max effective range, where as a missed Melee attack general doesn't hit anything.

While the risk is there it is probably somewhat overplayed. Leaving aside wether expanding/ frangible rounds are going to be effective against internal paneling or the casings of primary components as an ultra tech scenario there are other ranged options which certainly shouldn't offer anything like the same risk.

Small caliber and or low velocity weapons firing rounds based upon some form of secondary effect Needlers firing Neurotoxin or Burrower darts or Tangler type weapons firing either the eponymous non-lethal load or Stingrays are one approach. Alternatively if there is an atmosphere you can add Electrolasers or Sonic weapons to the list. While all of these approaches are pretty limited they are better than nothing and it will probably take more trouble than its worth to prevent all of them from being viable.

At the same time I think you are underplaying the risk posed by failed melee attacks. While it is true that relatively few of them will connect with the ships structure (assuming of course a comparatively open space) the attempts to push up the effectiveness of the weapons themselves will begin to cancel out the benefits when the contacts do occur. For example a vibroblade short-sword or cutlass in the hands of a strength 10 combatant is turning out 2d-2(3) or 2d(3) i.e. something comparable to a light pistol loaded with armor piercing rounds. Strength 12, a larger weapon and say an exoskeleton can easily push this to 4d(3) i.e. SMG territory.

[cptbutton]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Anyone have actual math to look at the whole "OMG! There's a hole in my spaceship and we are all gonna die!" scenario?

I can't cite it, but years ago I read someone saying something like if you emptied two clips from a sub-machine gun into the walls of the Mir space station it would take 15 minutes before the air loss became immediately dangerous, which was plenty of time to win a gun fight in such close quarters and start slapping on patches.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Frost

While the risk is there it is probably somewhat overplayed. Leaving aside wether expanding/ frangible rounds are going to be effective against internal paneling or the casings of primary components as an ultra tech scenario there are other ranged options which certainly shouldn't offer anything like the same risk.

Actully that was part of the stated sinarior, that the Powers the Be (and the Black marketers) can and do arm themselves with some type ultra tech range weapon that not a threat to the structure (Said energy weapons), And these weapons have to deal with the normal arms race for effective armor. My statement was however said armors to be effective aren't no where near effective against more physical attacks, but are bulk enough that while ther cost benefit makes them worht to ware agasing the deadly ultra tech ranged weapons (turning basical an insti kill into some that protetional srviavable, just like the normal armors arms race) But too bulky to layer it with addtional armor that is effective against melee weapons.

While the Energy Weapons are not useless. However Melee weapons can now be an effective option.

Originally Posted by Frost

At the same time I think you are underplaying the risk posed by failed melee attacks.

I would disagree becuase side a few rare weapons you no longer dung you full Melee damage once you miss because you are in the process of recovering your stance which has the same effect as pulling your punch. Though I never claimed such weapons could not caught deliberate damage, but that's a different kettle of fish.

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

The bullet sized hole places a limit on how fast the air can be removed from a compartment of a given volume. I suspect that in most cases it is going to take tens of minutes to bring the pressure down to something that will be a problem. That is more than enough time for dumb automated patches to be deployed that will plug the hole which is both a reasonable precaution and technology. So there is an interesting visual of having a wild gun fight and lots of patch balloons obscuring LOS as well as possibly popping in unintentional places.

Doesn't sound like the likely automated system. The likely automated systems is the compartmental door automatically close and lock as soon as a pressing issue is detected and will not open again until the correct authentication is used to unlock them, to buy time repairs--either manual or automated depends in the tech--to be preformed, reducing the danger to other compartments. A more 'total recall' style dystopic might also automatics start pumping the compartment air into storage to save the prestige resource, unless a suitable authentication overrides the action.

So said compdates are either way are locked until untill the authenticated show up, and in the latter case just as up the creek as if it was a bigger breech unless they have the codes.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Doesn't sound like the likely automated system. The likely automated systems is the compartmental door automatically close and lock as soon as a pressing issue is detected and will not open again until the correct authentication is used to unlock them, to buy time repairs--either manual or automated depends in the tech--to be preformed, reducing the danger to other compartments. A more 'total recall' style dystopic might also automatics start pumping the compartment air into storage to save the prestige resource, unless a suitable authentication overrides the action.

So said compdates are either way are locked until untill the authenticated show up, and in the latter case just as up the creek as if it was a bigger breech unless they have the codes.

AFAIK self-sealing walls and even suits are TL8 inventions.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

Anyone have actual math to look at the whole "OMG! There's a hole in my spaceship and we are all gonna die!" scenario?

An A square centimeter hole will halve the air pressure in a V cubic meter compartment every 35*V/A seconds.

Edit: approximately

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by RyanW

An A square centimeter hole will halve the air pressure in a V cubic meter compartment every 35*A/V seconds.

Edit: approximately

That can't be right. That means a 100 square centimeter hole would halve the air pressure of a 1x1x1 meter compartment in 3,500 seconds, while a 1 square centimeter hole would halve the air pressure in a 1,000 cubic meter compartment in less than a tenth of a second. I think you've got something backwards?

[vicky_molokh]

Air escapes at the speed of sound in a given atmosphere. Multiply speed by hole area to get volume lost per unit of time in a given moment. This rate falls as pressure falls.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

That can't be right. That means a 100 square centimeter hole would halve the air pressure of a 1x1x1 meter compartment in 3,500 seconds, while a 1 square centimeter hole would halve the air pressure in a 1,000 cubic meter compartment in less than a tenth of a second. I think you've got something backwards?

Oops: 35*V/A

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

AFAIK self-sealing walls and even suits are TL8 inventions.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/sel...pacecraft1.htm

For mirco-cracks and putures sure, a 9mm holes isn't micro.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

The bullet sized hole places a limit on how fast the air can be removed from a compartment of a given volume. I suspect that in most cases it is going to take tens of minutes to bring the pressure down to something that will be a problem. That is more than enough time for dumb automated patches to be deployed that will plug the hole which is both a reasonable precaution and technology. So there is an interesting visual of having a wild gun fight and lots of patch balloons obscuring LOS as well as possibly popping in unintentional places.

Anyone have actual math to look at the whole "OMG! There's a hole in my spaceship and we are all gonna die!" scenario?

Air escaping into vacuum through a small hole will produce a jet moving at approximately the speed of sound in the pre-expansion air. Call this c, and it will be approximately 300 m/s. The mass dm of gas going through the hole in a time dt will be
dM = - rho A c dt
where rho is the gas density, A is the area of the hole. If m is the molar mass, P is the pressure, T the temperature, and R the ideal gas constant
rho = m P / (R T)
dM = - A c m P dt / (R T).
If the volume of the compartment opened to vacuum is V, the mass of air inside that compartment is
M = rho V = V m P / (R T).
We now have
dM = - (A c / V) M dt
or equivalently,
M = M0 exp( - A c t / V)
for initial mass M0 at time t=0. This can be more conveniently expressed in terms of pressure
P = M R T / (V m)
P = P0 exp( - A c t / V).
You might expect a bullet to produce a hole about 1 cm^2 in area. A typical room in a cramped spacecraft might be 2 m x 2 m x 2.5 m, or 10 m^3. We thus see that in a time
t = V / (A c) = 10 m^3 / (0.0001 m^2 * 300 m/s) ~ 300 s
the pressure will have dropped by a factor of 1/e ~ 0.37. The time to drop the pressure by a factor of 2 is about 250 s (to within the accuracy of the crude approximations we have been making), or about 4 minutes. Fit people can survive on half an atmosphere of earth-composition air, a third of a standard atmosphere's pressure causes extreme hardship. So with a single bullet hole in the wall of a small pressure compartment will give the inhabitants about 4 to 5 minutes to do something. This time scales with the volume of the compartment, and inversely with the number of holes and the size of the holes (so with four or five bullet holes in the same size compartment, you would have about a minute).

But to change topics somewhat - what prevents the attackers from suiting up in armored pressure suits and using guns? They don't care if the place gets shot up, and if the defenders are using low penetration rounds to minimize damage to the spacecraft their bullets will not go through the armor, either.

Luke