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Old 09-27-2018, 12:38 AM   #41
Blue Ghost
 
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

Eh, that's not such a big deal given that HPs in other systems represent different attributes.

D&D HPs don't just represent how many times someone can hack into your character's body, but essentially you're overall combat ability of being able to turn an attack that would have normally killed or seriously wounded you into a scratch; i.e. dodging thrusts and what not.

You can't really dodge bullets or lasers, so the damage is more immediate. Ergo CW RPing, the few times I did it, was more vehicle centric. That is you stayed in your car most of the time.
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Old 09-27-2018, 06:57 AM   #42
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

I did write something longer, but it got lost in a network crash.

I do play CW with Roleplay elements. CW combat can be so campaign ending that we needed something to fill in the inevitable downtime when players were convalescing or trying to scrape together the cash to repair their rides.

Where a given CW skill didn't exist (and it seldom did) I tended to decide using a combination of Player commitment, narrative simplicity and GM fiat.

If a player argued a good case for outcome A and outcome A positively affected the narrative, I would decide if outcome A or a subset of it occurred. I seldom asked for "2 dice and pray" as once an outcome has been determined as logical why add a random element (and I'd only have to add arbitrary modifiers to an arbitrary roll). I also took guidance from GURPS (for crunch), the internet, personal experience and these fora to develop logical outcomes to events. Players could appeal, but seldom did, we're all grown-ups and have enough arguments in real-life for us to want to waste our play-time with them.

When I was younger I couldn't see the point of diceless roleplaying games. I suspect I wasn't mature enough to realise that sometimes a non-optimal outcome (from a character perspective) can be more fun from a player perspective than always "winning".

It doesn't matter if you win bragging rights if there is no-one who is willing to listen to you brag about it. Lose in an interesting way and you will seldom lack listeners ;)
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Old 09-27-2018, 12:08 PM   #43
kjamma4
 
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

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Originally Posted by juris View Post
I will tongue-in-cheek again state the fact that in CW people have fewer DPs (3DP) than the weakest tire (4DP), tells you everything you need to know about whether CW is a roleplaying game.
Agreed. That's why it's called Car Wars, not Driver Wars, Pedestrian Wars, Mechanic Wars, Gunner Wars, Pilot Wars, etc.

(although I'd definitely play in a RPG where you play the Car as opposed to the humans involved with the cars)
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Old 09-27-2018, 02:17 PM   #44
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

The "tire DP vs. ped DP" issue: Having actually shot at a car tire, and a "human analogue" as _Mythbusters_ so daintily put it (not in anger; 'twas at a range), I can say it's a lot harder to destroy a tire with a Real-World Heavy Pistol than it is to make a mess of a body with same. The killer for tire shots isn't the bullet itself; it's the deflation at speed which causes it to shred -- a stationary tire will just deflate, while retaining structural integrity. (It makes sense that there are weapons in _CW_ which do full damage to peds, but only half to vehicle components.)

CW RP: When Melee Weapons were introduced, it allowed a proper comparative test of _CW_-as-RPG against the Grand High Llama [sic] of RPGs, _D&D_. The general effect was: _CW RPG_ played more like _Boot Hill_ than _D&D_ -- combat was *very* quick, and *VERY* deadly, even with "mere" Melee Weapons. (For those familiar with _Knights of the Dinner Table_: The motto of _CW RPG_ might as well have been "Hand Me Another Character Sheet".) The hard part is Attributes -- in _CW_, the "attribute scores" are on the hardware, not the wetware (for ex.: A basic MG's "attribute score" is 7 -- its to-hit number); this is not what most gamers are used to. (I'm looking forward to the re-release of _The Fantasy Trip_, as I've never been able to acquire a decent-condition copy until now; "more input" :) ).

As to "how to use the non-combat skills": While a lot of them are self-explanatory, *when* to use a given skill is where the GM enters into it. (Or the scenario itself -- I have in my files notes on "RP"-ing some of the _ADQ_ convoy scenarios, including stuff like this note for the setup of "Badlands Run": "Anyone with Paramedic skill who observes the Apostle's driver gets a roll against that skill; on a success, he realizes the driver has been poisoned, and needs to go to a hospital. If this is done as part of the pre-mission setup, the driver will survive, but be unavailable for the mission; if he is not taken to hospital before leaving SLC, he will die". The players get points if they can prevent this character dying.)

Sometime soon, I should have my website set up; there, I can provide more details on this topic. It probably goes without saying: I've been thinking about this stuff since *at least* the early Pocket Box editions. :)
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Old 09-27-2018, 10:15 PM   #45
Blue Ghost
 
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjamma4 View Post
Agreed. That's why it's called Car Wars, not Driver Wars, Pedestrian Wars, Mechanic Wars, Gunner Wars, Pilot Wars, etc.

(although I'd definitely play in a RPG where you play the Car as opposed to the humans involved with the cars)
Well, it's called Car Wars because that's the title the author chose. The earliest edition I bought back in 81 had hints at RPing in it. And like swordtart mentioned, having plinked when I was younger, a tire can be a very difficult target to damage.
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Old 09-28-2018, 03:20 AM   #46
swordtart
 
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

Tangent Warning!

I have a Guns Digest that has an interesting article on whether "Guns can stop cars". As well as measuring the penetration of rounds through a car (in a slightly more scientific method that Top Gear might use), they also tried shooting at tires with the sort of weapons a typical continental* European police office might have (and a few small calibre guns that they happened to have lying around).

They noted that they often had more success when the shot penetrated the metal rim of the tire as even a small hole would result in rapid deflation. Rims also tended to be quite thin metal easily penetrated by even small calibre guns. Shots through the rubber were to an extent self sealing (bullets don't tend to cut a neat hole in ductile materials rather they open a flap). In this case there wasn't any material difference between large and small calibres.

They also simulated a moving vehicle by jacking the wheels off the ground and spinning them at representative speeds. IIRC smaller bullets were more likely to penetrate (but sill have minimal effect). Larger (and generally slower moving) bullets would sometimes be deflected before they could penetrate at all (creating a worrying range hazard into the bargain).

The only weapon they found that would reliably deflate a tire in a useful time frame was a 9mm sub-machine gun fired full auto.

I also recall another study on what calibre** was required to "guarantee" a single shot incapacitation of a human being. That study basically concluded that if you hit someone in the long bones of the leg or one or two other key areas*** they will be incapacitated with even "weak" rounds. They reached the less than useful conclusion that for a hit anywhere on the body to "guarantee" incapacitation you would need a 2" projectile.

"Making a mess" of a person is no more useful than giving a tire a slow puncture. It should be noted of course that whilst a ped in CW has 3 DP, even 2 points incapacitates them and a single wound severely impairs their ability to function (-2 on all skills). You need to do all 4 points damage to have any effect at all on the vehicle with standard**** tires.

*Not the UK of course, you can bash a tire with a truncheon till you are blue in the face ;).

** they also took powder load and other factors into account in the study but calibre was the headline item as it is usually what people argue about at the range and in RPGs)

*** Which together equated to roughly 10% overall of the human body in profile. Those RPGs that give criticals if you roll 10% of your hit chance might be right on the money.

**** Whatever that means in a game where armed vehicles are the standard, we are probably not talking about the sort of tires that we are buying IRL.
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Old 09-28-2018, 07:57 AM   #47
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

I believe standard means non-radial tires. Other than the big trucks, I don't know anyone who buys non radial tires for their car these days....once in a blue moon I see someone who has a low end vehicle, who is lower income, that has standard tires on their car.

I think the CW rules state that the physics in CW is more Hollywood than actual physics, so there's aspect to it.
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Old 09-28-2018, 04:08 PM   #48
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
I believe standard means non-radial tires. Other than the big trucks, I don't know anyone who buys non radial tires for their car these days....once in a blue moon I see someone who has a low end vehicle, who is lower income, that has standard tires on their car.
There's companies out there which reproduce bias-ply tires for car-restorers -- the best-known is Coker Tire. (I'd provide a link to their site, but I think that's a rules violation hereabouts.) And for a while, some racing series were using bias-ply tires to counter some of the unforgiving nature of radials (a radial tends to lose grip all at once, where a b-p lets loose gradually -- it's part of why footage of road races from the '70s and earlier shows the cars going through corners with just a hint of drift to them).
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:28 PM   #49
Tom H.
 
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
. . . And the effort to steer me away from gaming was massive
. . .
Regrettably, unknown to me, I had a lot of opposition to my gaming hobby, which included Car Wars.
. . .
I feel sad about this, but you wouldn't be alone. So this is a good topic.

My D&D interest was a casualty of the early '80s scares too.

I was so stoked about the Basic Set, but I stopped playing the coolest game I had experienced after about six months.

Fortunately, I still pursued my Avalon Hill wargames to keep the gamer in me alive.

After I picked up Car Wars, it become my new favorite thing. Its open nature that encouraged creativity and extension became a substitute for these qualities provided by RPGs.

While many more "sane" people ignored the scares of the '80s, I'm sure many still were inhibited by other cultural effects.

For example, the work ethic we collectively embody can cast aspersions on playing "games."

I didn't fully realize it until later either, but I now believe that my mother was prejudiced against my hobby especially as I grew older and was supposed to have left it behind.

To be sure, gaming can pull at how I may "responsibly" allocate my time. But just because I have to make those decisions doesn't make me now undervalue the significance of having such a passion.

Anecdotally, I suspect that many people also struggle with how to fit their hobby into their lives, and their family and friends may contribute more or less support to that joy.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:35 PM   #50
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Default Re: CW as a roleplaying game?

P.S.

I finally got interested again in RPGs in the early 2000s after having picked up the excellent GURPS Lite (3rd edition at the time).

I do feel a lot of loss on having missed out on D&D during its glory days especially being a peer of other gamers who had continued with it.

It was kind of fun to have purchased some PDFs of the classic adventures and study them again.
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